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Old February 3, 2011, 12:19 PM   #76
Jimmy10mm
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While I love the pre type II H-Ps for their lovely finishes I prefer the type III for the cast frame and especially the more easily operated safety. The non humped feed ramp too. If I was just going to keep it in the safe and take it to the range once in awhile the T or C series would be fine but for possible carry use I prefer the later model's features. My 2 bits.
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Old February 4, 2011, 09:04 AM   #77
Walt Sherrill
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I noticed you didn't answer my question. I asked for evidence to support your claim that Browning (really FN) made a business decision to use castings rather than forgings in their frames for their newer guns. Do you have any evidence to support that claim? None of the new material you provided addressed the topic.

As for your following comment:

Quote:
If you are speaking of the Stephen Camp that used to be a police officer and put out a pamphlet (he called it a book) about the High Power I am very familiar with him and his views. He as no experience with metals and has no experience with working with machinery as a profession. His ideas about many other semi-auto pistols show that he has very little mechanical knowledge about them or there design advantages or faults.
Before you disparage another person's lack of mechanical knowledge about semi-automatic pistols, YOU need to show us that your knowledge is somehow superior. Familiarity and a long association with a given gun, process, mechanism, or industry is no proof of expertise.

As for your claim that forged metal is more rust-resistant than cast metal -- I'd be interested in non-anecdotal evidence for that claim. I've never heard that before, and find it interesting.
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Old February 4, 2011, 09:06 AM   #78
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Gunnotes - that was a very interesting post on cast v forged guns. I enjoyed reading it.
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Old February 4, 2011, 09:17 AM   #79
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Wow, lots of crap in this thread already.

The old forged frame Browning High Powers will not last past @5000 (give or take) rounds of "major-9" ammunition without battering the frames to death. I know, I went through three of them. The newer cast frames are in fact slightly stronger than the older forged frames and will last quite a bit longer. This is in fact common knowledge these days. This is NOT new information. Anyone who really knows about the history of the Browning High Power, and I don't just mean the "romanticized" version, would know this.

Hey guys, this is getting a WEEEEE bit off topic here. Lets try to bring it back, shall we?

To the O.P.: What have you decided to do with your High Power?
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Old February 4, 2011, 12:21 PM   #80
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goodspeed(TPF):

Quote:
To the O.P.: What have you decided to do with your High Power?
+1

Inquiring minds want to know. Evan, get back to us.
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Old February 4, 2011, 01:13 PM   #81
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Goodspeed,

I do not think that you are correct in saying that old High Powers will not last more than 5k of hot loads without giving in.

I have been shooting one of my 3 Belgian C series regularly in practice and competition for 17 years without any issues. These loads are hot enough to take a bowling pin clean off the table.

Please be sure of your information before mentioning them as fact. There are newbies that will believe what you have said.
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Old February 4, 2011, 01:34 PM   #82
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I've got Blake Stephen's book,"The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol." If a guy wants a detailed history of the Hi-Power and/or is a collector of same it is a good read and good to have around for future reference IMO.

I also have the latest version of Stephan Camp's book,"The Shooter's Guide To The Browning Hi Power." IMO the title describes the contents perfectly. If the reader is looking for a greatly readable treatise based on the man's forty years of experience with the venerable pistol it is well worth the price of admission. For me it is more valuable than the Blake Stephens book but YMMV.
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Old February 4, 2011, 01:49 PM   #83
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In non-stainless guns castings rust very quickly. I saw a modern made .22 pump gun with cast frame recently that had a rust hole eaten right through the side wall of the frame. The gun was only several years old. On the other hand I have seen forged frame guns that were 80 or more years old and had surface rust on them. Heavy rust in some cases but none had a rust hole eaten right through the frame.
This assertion really intrigues me as I've never heard it before. Are you saying that "non-stainless gun castings" rust faster and more "aggressively"-rust eating through on the casting as opposed to mere surface rust on the forging? Not to disparage your many years of tenure in the "industry" in any way but I wonder if you could support your claim with hard, empirical data? At this point, I'm not interested in personal experience or anecdotal hearsay; I'd just like to see some real evidence.
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Old February 4, 2011, 09:24 PM   #84
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When I worked for the White Motor Company back in the 1960's to the year 1980 we had a machine that took off the cosmoline on the various diesel engine parts. When a cast bell housing was run through the degreaser and not oiled immediately you could actually stand there and see it rust before your eyes.
I'd call this the sort of anecdotal evidence we wanted to avoid.

The examples you cite could have been two different types of steel (with dramatically different carbon or other contents). That could have had more to do with presence of rust than whether the pieces were cast or forged.

I would not expect a bell housing and a crankshaft, for example, to be made from the same stuff, to withstand physical stress in the same manner, or to resist corrosion in the same way.

Can you cite some technical sources?
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Old February 5, 2011, 08:35 AM   #85
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As I noted before, these are examples of anecdotal evidence. In the cases you cited, you tell us nothing about the types of metal being compared. The composition of the metal contributes to its rust-resistance and is very important. We don't know that the steels being compared are, in fact, similar.

Can you cite any technical sources that support your contention that forged steel is more rust resistant than cast steel? I've searched high and low and can find nothing that supports your claim. This is a subject that I've looked at before.

(I've found all sorts of stuff about how forged steels can be stronger than cast steel, along one axis; those same sources note, however, that if the forged piece is stressed in multiple directions, cast steel will often be much stronger and more suitable. And these same sources say that cast steel is not necessarily more porous than forged steel -- it depends on the care and processes used in their creation.

I've also found that the composition of the steel is the critical component in determining it's resistance to corrosion. But, again, nothing about how forging might contribute to rust resistance.)

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; February 5, 2011 at 08:48 AM.
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Old February 5, 2011, 08:59 AM   #86
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Did some googling on cast versus forged and came up with this from a fellow who worked for Ruger and wrote about the virtues of cast parts here. Might be helpful to add to the discussion.

I don't know about automotive parts or firearm parts but I do have a couple of decades of experience with both iron and steel tattoo machine frames both sand and investment castings. I can tell you for sure that either method produces castings which behave like any other malleable iron or steel product in terms of susceptibility to corrosion.

IOW, in that particular application forged or cast would amount to the same resistance level in terms of rust. I imagine the castings FN are making are equal to the Ruger castings described in the above link.
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Old February 5, 2011, 11:15 AM   #87
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gunnotes:...And one more time Browning did not use a newer cast frame because it was superior to a re-designed newer forged frame that could have had the same heat treatment to it. They used the cast frame because it was cheaper to make....
Ehhh..........I believe the reason FN chose to go with a cast frame was due to the expense of retooling. FN tried a forged frame made of a harder steel, but the tooling experienced such excessive wear it made the changeover impossible. By going with castings they eliminated many of the steps in producing the HP frames, so they DID save money....but the reason wasn't because casting was just cheaper, the reason was casting allowed them to continue using their original tooling.

Quote:
gunnotes
...In Blake's book there is even a story of a meeting FN had concerning the cost savings by going to a cast frame and cast parts. If Camp had bothered to read it perhaps is love of cast frame High Powers would not be as strong....
I have Blake's book and can find no such reference to the MODERN cast frames developed by FN. Could you give me a page reference?
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Old February 5, 2011, 01:37 PM   #88
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Quote:
gunnotes
Quote:
Quote:
I have Blake's book and can find no such reference to the MODERN cast frames developed by FN. Could you give me a page reference?
I refer you to page 168 of Blake's Book....
That page has nothing to do with a cast frame or cast parts. That page merely covers the change from the internal to the external extractor, elimination of the "thumbprint" and a few other MINOR changes.......ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regard to cast parts or a cast frame.

You made the following statement:
Quote:
gunnotes
...In Blake's book there is even a story of a meeting FN had concerning the cost savings by going to a cast frame and cast parts. If Camp had bothered to read it perhaps is love of cast frame High Powers would not be as strong....
If Mr Camp had indeed "bothered" to read the book he would not have read anything regarding a cast frame or cast parts. And if you had actually read page 168 you would have read: "...as a result of the task force's recommendations thus embodied the elusive but very happy combination of decreased cost of manufacture with function equal or superior to what had gone before..." (emphasis added)

I think you owe Mr Camp an apology.
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Old February 5, 2011, 02:08 PM   #89
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gunnotes I stand by my original statement.
Even though it is factually incorrect?

Quote:
gunnotes
...In Blake's book there is even a story of a meeting FN had concerning the cost savings by going to a cast frame and cast parts. If Camp had bothered to read it perhaps is love of cast frame High Powers would not be as strong....
Dude, you need to man up and admit when you are wrong. You are entitled to your opinion as to the quality of the HiPower over the years.........but c'mon........no such statement appears in Blakes book. Inventing a reference that does not exist is, well.........horsehockey and does not add to your credibility.
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Old February 5, 2011, 03:43 PM   #90
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gunnotes But to deny the programs existence or its ultimate and on going results simply brings to mind the statement "You can lead a man to knowledge but you cannot make him think!" FN had a cost savings program and castings became a part of that program and that is Historical Fact.
No one denied that FN looked for ways to cut expenses......every company on the planet does so. But those cost cutting measures prior to 1962 have little bearing on the introduction of cast frames that occured THIRTY YEARS LATER.

Don't panic or stroke out when you find put about the MIM parts.

Again, you owe Mr Camp an apology for your misstatement of fact.
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Old February 5, 2011, 03:54 PM   #91
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I'm glad Evan was able to get the info on his Hi Power he was looking for.
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Old February 5, 2011, 04:20 PM   #92
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^^^
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Old February 5, 2011, 04:38 PM   #93
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Yeah but does he have a ...... shudder.....cast frame ?? Better get rid of it now ..... send me a PM
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Old February 5, 2011, 04:42 PM   #94
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Looking closer the gun is worth more than $700 I stated originally due to its made in Belgium marking. This ups its blue book value by 50%. I would rate this gun at 95% because it has been shot and has handling marks in the silver chrome. BB of Guns 39th edition puts it value at $550 + 50% = $825. That assumes he has original mags. This gun was made in 1980.
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Old February 5, 2011, 04:57 PM   #95
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You must understand I read this book over 14 years ago.
And yet you were able to cite page 168 from your memory! I was impressed until you confessed this:

Quote:
After pulling the book out after 14 years you are right.
So you referenced page number 168 from your "memory", only to learn that your memory was faulty. Or maybe you were just throwing jabs in the dark, trusting that no one would verify your "source". Hard to say and I'm not judging but it is starting to sound like a reach in terms of your credibility.
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt when I (and Mr. Sherrill) asked that you provide verification of your claim that gun steel castings rust faster and more aggressively than gun steel forgings, specifically requesting that you not reference anecdotal experiences (which isn't to say that experience, intuition and common sense can't be right; it's just not "proof"). And you reply with personal experiences and what passes for "common sense" I guess (the porosity of cast steel collects and holds water more than forged steel does). Everything you allege could certainly be correct. All I was asking is that you provide hard data supporting a claim that I've never heard of before and was genuinely interested in hearing the evidence for same. If you can't come up with the empirical data (I know I tried and couldn't) proving your case, just say so. Because you (or I) can't come up with the "proof" doesn't necessarily invalidate your claim; it just leaves it at the doorstep of hearsay until the facts are provided.
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Old February 5, 2011, 05:00 PM   #96
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You must understand I read this book over 14 years ago. And my statements about FN, and the meeting to form a program to cheapen the High Power was right on the money. I do stand corrected on my statement that there was a direct reference to castings. After pulling the book out after 14 years you are right. But to deny the programs existence or its ultimate and on going results simply brings to mind the statement "You can lead a man to knowledge but you cannot make him think!" FN had a cost savings program and castings became a part of that program and that is Historical Fact.
You read that 14 years ago and remembered the page number in question without looking at it again! I am impressed.

FN had to build a stronger gun to handle the .40 S&W round, and it would appear that using a cast frame was the most cost effective way to do so.

That didn't make the new gun cheaper, nor did it mean that the gun was in any away less robust than the prior models. In fact, it was stronger.

How is that a "cheapening" of the product? Most companies call that a good business decision.
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Old February 5, 2011, 05:03 PM   #97
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My advice if you want to sell it is to put it on gunbroker and start bidding at $700 and see what happens. I'll bet it pulls over 1k easily.

If you're not a handgun connoisseur sell it. I know I'd rather have the money than a painting I could sell for $2,500, art's not my bag.
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Old February 5, 2011, 05:12 PM   #98
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My advice if you want to sell it is to put it on gunbroker and start bidding at $700 and see what happens. I'll bet it pulls over 1k easily.

If you're not a handgun connoisseur sell it. I know I'd rather have the money than a painting I could sell for $2,500, art's not my bag.
+1 Winner winner chicken dinner!
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Old February 5, 2011, 09:25 PM   #99
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Old February 5, 2011, 11:06 PM   #100
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If used cast guns are superior as you have stated than why do the auctions get so much more for the used "T" series guns and the silver chromes.
If you'll check what I wrote, you'll find that I didn't say that one form of steel (caste or forged) was superior to the other. What I did say was that FN apparently felt that a cast frame seemed to be the most cost-effective way to handle the .40 S&W round -- something they could not afford to do using forgings and existing equipment. If the price was too high, they couldn't sell it!

Prodded by your comments about how you believe the market values the older forged guns, I used the newest Blue Book to examine prices. I understand that Blue Book prices aren't what you'll always find in a gun store, but every gun shop I've done business with seems to have a BB on hand to help them set prices on trade ins. BB prices aren't absolute, but they are one measure of value.

I was surprised with what this quick review showed. The price cited in the BB for the T-series BHP in 95% condition, in today's dollars, is $525. The BB price for a MKIII (.40) made in 2000, also in 95% condition, is $550

That older T-series sold for around $1000 in 1955 dollars, while the MKIII sold for about $1000 in 2000 dollars. There's a big difference in the "real" costs of those guns, with the newer BHP being much less expensive in terms of buying power. There are also many other post T-series BHPs that sell for more than T-series guns; Browning/FN has built a lot of different guns using the BHP pattern. But, no matter how you look at it, the market seems to be saying something quite different than what you would have us believe.

Quote:
Your statements do not bear any reality to the real market place and the markets perception of quality does not reflect your opinion either. The difference in prices paid between the two types of guns certainly proves that beyond any doubt.
Which real market place are you talking about?

As for the differences in prices paid between the two types of guns -- I cited some examples of the differences above, and I cited my sources. Upon what do you base your claims?
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