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Old January 29, 2011, 04:08 PM   #1
Ridge_Runner_5
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ATF just ruled your "tactical" shotgun illegal

Quote:
Following this review, the working
group determined that certain shotgun features are not particularly suitable or readily adaptable
for sporting purposes. These features include:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.
Although the features listed above do not represent an exhaustive list of possible shotgun
features, designs or characteristics, the working group determined that shotguns with any one of
these features are most appropriate for military or law enforcement use. Therefore, shotguns
containing any of these features are not particularly suitable for nor readily adaptable to
generally recognized sporting purposes such as hunting, trap, sporting clay, and skeet shooting.
Each of these features and an analysis of each of the determinations are included within the main
body of the report..
Enjoy
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Old January 29, 2011, 04:14 PM   #2
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No, the working group determined that shotguns with those features do not meet the "sporting purposes" requirement of GCA '68. Meaning that if they are foreign made they cannot be imported. Those already in country or that are made in the USA aren't covered by this regulation.

Of course this is just the determination of the working group at this point and not final regulation.
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Old January 29, 2011, 04:15 PM   #3
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Is this the publication of the proposed rule? Or the rule itself?
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Old January 29, 2011, 04:16 PM   #4
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This is the publication of their study, which is open for comment until May 1.
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Old January 29, 2011, 04:16 PM   #5
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My Tactical shotgun has none of those items. It is made in America so it wouldn't matter if it did.

My standard Mossberg 500, as tactical as it is, just doesn't have a single item mentioned.

I am sure many of our Tactical shotguns are forever safe as they masquerade as innocent huntin' guns...

As tactical as any gun in my hands could be...


Brent
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Old January 29, 2011, 04:18 PM   #6
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Okay. Just read it again. It is the study to influence a proposed rule. I strongly urge everyone who's interested to send comments to the ATF. This is not law, and looks like a first step in a long agency procedure to change the 'sporting purpose' interpretation.

What I find disturbing is the extremely narrow construction of "sporting purpose" by the ATF, which basically dismisses IPSC, 3 Gun and other shooting sports as "non sporting" and instead adopts a position the only (legitimate) sporting purpose is duck hunting and clay shooting.
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Last edited by KChen986; January 30, 2011 at 12:11 AM. Reason: misinterpretation
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Old January 29, 2011, 04:26 PM   #7
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Since discussion has opened on up this thread, I won't close it as a Cut & Paste shoot & scoot, which is clearly against TFL's rules of operation.

If you don't know what a Cut & Paste post is, click the forum rules link.
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Old January 29, 2011, 06:54 PM   #8
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Sorry Mike, had just realized that and was coming back to start one...
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Old January 29, 2011, 07:03 PM   #9
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they need to get rid of that sporting purpose BS, as it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment...and is only used as incremental gun control.
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Old January 29, 2011, 07:05 PM   #10
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Off topic, but Man I have GOT to get me one of those Home Simpson "holsters".

Back on topic:

Recent events will make perfect grist for the anti gun mill. Expect all kinds of attacks on the Second Amendment.
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Old January 29, 2011, 07:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
they need to get rid of that sporting purpose BS, as it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment
Agreed. 2nd Amendment had nothing to do with hunting...well, except red coats.
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Old January 29, 2011, 08:25 PM   #12
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I have a Mossberg 500 with Double Pistol Grip and holds a total of 8 rounds, so they'll be after mine, as I'd imagine that this "proposed" law will probably go thru, since they'll "give it to us" a little at a time, not all at once, and this issue falls into just that, I believe.

Maybe I should take heed, go ahead and convert it to either a slug gun or muzzleloader so I'll be legal when this hammer falls.
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Old January 29, 2011, 08:40 PM   #13
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Your Mossberg is a domestically produced shotgun that you already own. How could it be affected by a proposed import ban?
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Old January 29, 2011, 08:42 PM   #14
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Christchild, the above is regarding an import ban. Basically it is similar to import rules that required a certain number of parts be replaced with american made items to circumvent these rule breaker items...

Brent
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Old January 29, 2011, 08:59 PM   #15
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Can we merge all of these threads from all of the sections into one and suppress the BS scare mongering?

NOTHING has been banned...nada, zip, zilch...........they are doing a STUDY.......and basically so far agreeing with the intent of the previous studies from years past
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Old January 29, 2011, 09:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Can we merge all of these threads from all of the sections into one and suppress the BS scare mongering?
This. This marks thread #4 on this topic, and the second in the "shotgun" section in the forum (which, by the way, already spelled out what this ATF document was, has a link to it, and pretty well laid out where we currently stand).

Folks need to read and think and not post whatever rumor they heard at the gun shop this morning.
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Old January 29, 2011, 09:43 PM   #17
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Like rantingredneck said, this is neither a rule nor a proposed rule. It is a study done by a working group and the study conludes with the recommendation of the working group that conducted the study that
shotguns with any of the characteristics or features listed above not be authorized for importation.

Last edited by TheKlawMan; January 30, 2011 at 01:13 AM.
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Old January 30, 2011, 12:43 AM   #18
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Well, it caused a bit of a stir with folks that are fond of the Saiga 12. Bumped PSL/FPK rifle & Marlin SBL down a notch on the purchase queue and got a second Saiga 12 a little early.

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Old January 30, 2011, 07:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
Quote:
the working group determined that shotguns with any one of
these features are most appropriate for military or law enforcement use.




And that is all I am going to say about that.
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Old January 30, 2011, 08:43 AM   #20
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Quote:
Well, it caused a bit of a stir with folks that are fond of the Saiga 12.
That's amusing, because if you actually read the ATF paper, it is evident that the Saiga 12 won't be affected by the new rules. It has none of the evil features the ATF calls out.
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Old January 30, 2011, 11:28 AM   #21
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Thank You, Mr. Brent! I didn't click the link. I could have and read further, but the topic wasn't a surprise. I was WRONG about the details but it was not a surprise, considering all things.

ThreadJack is over! Carry On!
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Old January 30, 2011, 12:16 PM   #22
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The Saiga 12 as imported then wouldn't be affected, but as modified would be?

I'm already planning on getting one - they are amazing weapons, and the drum mag makes them really fun to shoot.

Do you think those drum mags will be gone soon then? Probably should get one now I suppose.
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Old January 30, 2011, 12:31 PM   #23
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Presumably, Norinco 97 Winchester trench gun copies will fall under such a ruling because they have bayonet lugs???
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Old January 30, 2011, 03:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
The Saiga 12 as imported then wouldn't be affected, but as modified would be?
Not likely.

I've been doing more reading on this, and my guess is 922r and its parts count will apply to the S12; it's discussed a bit here and there.

Thing is, as it is imported, the S12 is perfectly legal, since it is "sporting." If you make it nonsporting through a conversion, you need to have 10 or less imported parts. The S12 has about 13, maybe 14 (if threaded for chokes), parts as-is (according to the usual ATF count). Most conversions would mean swapping out no less than 5 parts (trigger group is 3 parts, plus the buttstock and pistol grip). Use US made mags, that's 3 more.

Basically, use a US made trigger group and stock/pistol grip, and you're fine. Mine currently has 7 US parts swapped out (the 5 I mentioned, plus the handguard and muzzle device), so either way I'm fine.

Here's a bit of a discussion on this
, and from what I can tell, this will be nothing new for us.
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Old January 30, 2011, 03:59 PM   #25
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Actually, look at the definition of "Destructive Device" in 921(b):

"(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter;"

If it isn't a sporting purpose for importation purposes and the Attorney General is the sole person to make the determination, what stops it from being applied to domestic shotguns and making them NFA weapons.
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