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Old January 27, 2011, 05:03 PM   #1
serf 'rett
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Berry's Bullets - Need Load Data Help

Probably should have gone about this differently. First, I’ll state that I’ve never reloaded (other than pulling the handle on dad’s old shot shell press back in early 70’s). Started brass hoarding when our anti-gun Prez got voted in; thereby, helping me convince the household financial comptroller I really “needed” a few pistols. Been doing the required reading – ABC’s of Reloading, Speer, Lee, Alliant and internet. After I got the RCBS kit for Christmas, I got a little excited and lost focus –I bought bullets and powder for which I have NO RELOADING DATA. This is the type of thing which happens when its 50 miles to closest LGS with reloading supplies.

The 9mm components are as follows:
Berry’s plated bullets – 9mm 115 gr. RN DS (DS-double struck) and 124 gr. HBFP (hollow base flat point)
Unique and Power Pistol

Have read that the Berry’s plated can be loaded using “mid” range loads or lead bullet data and that lead bullet data is generally around 10% less than Jacketed data. Hit the first wall when I couldn’t find lead data for Unique or Power Pistol. Then I thought I’d just use the 10 percent down grade of jacketed as a max less another 10% as a starting point for load development, but then I found for maximum load of Unique, under 115 gr. Bullet, was shown as 5.5 gr. (Lee jacketed) to 6.3 gr. (Speer TMJ RN or GDHP). That looks to be a wide range for a newbie like me – I don’t where to start.

Question 1 – What is a starting load and maximum load for Unique with a 115 gr. Berry’s?

At least my limited sources agreed that Power Pistol should not exceed 6.7 gr. with a 115 gr. bullet.

Question 2 - Should I downgrade the maximum 6.7 gr. by 10 percent to get a new maximum of 6.0 gr. with the plan of working my way up from a starting load of 5.5 gr.?

Question 3 – Any recommendations on min/max of Unique or Power Pistol under a 124 gr. Berry’s HBFP.

Question 4 – Should I just buy some WIN 231? (Got lead data for that powder.)

Question 5 – Is that the hazy shape of a Lyman #49 in my crystal ball?

Let’s work through this briar patch before we think about discussing the 40S&W. Thanks!
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Old January 27, 2011, 07:37 PM   #2
32dgrz
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Info from Berry:
Suggest the best OAL for our 9-124 Gr. HBFP is 1.050.

NOTE: Please take notice of our shorter than normal OAL - and if you are using other data for the same weight bullet - with a longer OAL - you will need to reduce the powder charge slightly, so you do not increase pressures too much.

Stay Safe,

Bud Watson
Berrys Mfg Inc



I have loaded and shot around thousands of rounds with this load and various plated and jacketed 124-125g bullets through 3 different glocks.

berry 124g HBFP
1.10 oal
5.1g unique
cci primers
1018 fps from g19
add 100fps for g17

data is similar with zero fmj - not much difference really.

Tried lower, down to about 4.7 from 5.1, but accuracy reliability and "feel" best at 5.1

More Info http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=188301

Not a fan of PP
I like WST for 9's and 45's. WSF for 9's and 40's. Meters better than Unique

Work your loads up!! This works for me and may not for you!!

Last edited by 32dgrz; January 27, 2011 at 07:42 PM.
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Old January 27, 2011, 09:05 PM   #3
oneounceload
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How could you not find any load data online?

Use Google, type in your powder and it will take you to powder maker websites where you'll find all the data you can want
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Old January 27, 2011, 10:05 PM   #4
noylj
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Back in my day, son, there was very little reloading data. What there was consisted of recommended starting and max loads for jacketed bullets (of all types with lead core) and lead bullets.
Plated like Berrys have a very thin veneer of copper and they are, as far as your gun is concerned, lead bullets.
Back then, there were no manufacturer's recommended minimum COLs. You loaded to the COL that worked in your gun and YOU ALWAYS STARTED WITH THE STARTING LOAD OR 10% BELOW THE STARTING LOAD.
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Old January 27, 2011, 10:25 PM   #5
noylj
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Back in my day, son, there was very little reloading data. What there was consisted of recommended max loads for jacketed bullets (of all types of ogives with lead core) and lead bullets. You were responsible to start 10-15% below the max and work up. The only guarantee you had was that the load listed was fine in the gun or pressure barrel used for the test and may not have any meaning to your gun.
Plated bullets like Berrys have a very thin veneer of copper and they are, as far as your gun is concerned, lead bullets.
Back then, there were no manufacturer's recommended minimum COLs. You loaded to the COL that worked in your gun and YOU ALWAYS STARTED 15% OR MORE BELOW THE MAX LOAD.
Now, I compile all the data I get from reloading manuals and Handloader magazine. This way, I can determine what the LOWEST starting load is.
That is where I start--lowest starting load of all the starting loads I can find for the type of bullet I am shooting.
I still never look at the COL in the manual as it has no bearing on my gun. My COL is always as long as possible to fit the magazine, feed and chamber in my gun, and not have bullet set-back from a couple of time feeding into my gun.
If you are going to shoot plated bullets, I recommend that you start 10% below the starting load for jacketed or at the starting load for a lead bullet.
For 9x19, you have to be sure that there is no bullet set-back (no more than 0.005", and it should be less than 0.002") after feeding into your gun twice.
Never begin any where other than the starting load and, again, start at the lowest starting load you can find. Don't assume. Start low and work up.
Everybody seems to just want to jump into a load and not start at the beginning or learn how to work up a load.
Don't load 100 rounds of a given load. Rather, first load 10 at the STARTING load and take them to the range to be sure they feed and chamber. They may be too light to cycles the action, but that is just fine. You know you aren't shooting an over-pressure load.
When you get back, load a series of 10 rounds from the lowest starting load to the most common max load at 0.3 or 0.5gn increments (the Lee Pro Auto-Disk does this for you).
Now, go to the range and shoot these off a rest for accuracy using 5-shot groups.
After every 5 shot group, collect your brass and examine them for any signs of over-pressure.
You should also have some factory rounds so you know how the recoil feels with factory rounds. Any of your loads that feel significantly heavier should be "assumed" to be at or beyond max.
Now, when you go home, you will be able to determine which rounds were the most accurate. If your max load in this series still seem anemic compared to factory and you haven't found a load that is accurate enough, you can try increasing charge weights. However, at this point you know you are into charge weights that are over-pressure is some guns so you will need to careful. You may want to fire one round and inspect the case for pressure signs.
Here is some of my compilation. Remember: start at the lowest starting load and you are entirely responsible for your actions.
9x19
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Start/Max Power Factor COL
L-SWC 115 Unique 4.5 1025 Start 118
L-CRN 115 Unique 5.2 1127 Start 130
L-SWC 115 Unique 5.7 1210 Max 139 1.100
L-CRN 115 Unique 5.7 1244 Max 143

JHP 115 Unique 4.4 996 Start 115 1.090
JHP 115 Unique 4.7 1050 121 1.050
JHP 115 Unique 4.9 1000 Start 115
FMJ/JHP 115 Unique 5.0 1100 Start 127 1.090
JHP 115 Unique 5.0 1100 127 1.015
J-all 115 Unique 5.1 1092 Start 126
JHP 115 Unique 5.1 1150 Accurate 132 1.050
FMJ 115 Unique 5.2 1185 Max 136
J-all 115 Unique 5.5 1168 Max 134
FMJ 115 Unique 5.5 1166 134 1.230
Rem HP 115 Unique 5.5 0 1.110
Speer GD-HP, TMJ, JHP 115 Unique 5.6 1166 Start 134
JHC 115 Unique 5.7 1155 not max in BHP 133
JHP 115 Unique 5.7 1100 127 1.015
JHP 115 Unique 5.8 1233 Max 142
FMJ 115 Unique 6.1 1185 Max 136
FMJ 115 Unique 6.1 1185 Max 136 1.120
Hosler HP 115 Unique 6.1 1260 145
JHP 115 Unique 6.3 1200 Max 138
Speer GD-HP, TMJ, JHP 115 Unique 6.3 1244 Max 143
Sierra JHP 115 Unique 6.4 1312 151
Hornady JHP 115 Unique 7.0 1275 Max 147
JHP 115 Unique 7.0 1275 Max 147
FMJ/JHP 115 Unique 7.0 1350 Max 155

Swaged L-RN 124 Unique 4.0 900 Start 112 1.142
L-RN 121 Unique 4.0 1013 Start 123
L-RN 125 Unique 4.1 911 Start 114 1.142
Speer L-RN 125 Unique 4.1 911 Start 114 1.130
Swaged L-RN 125 Unique 4.1 911 Start 114
L-RN 121 Unique 4.3 930 Start 113 1.142
L-CFP 121 Unique 4.3 940 Start 114
L-RN 121 Unique 4.3 940 Start 114 1.142
RCBS 9mm-125-RN 123 Unique 4.3 995 122
L-RN 125 Unique 4.5 1007 Max 126
Speer L-RN 125 Unique 4.5 1007 Max 126 1.130
swaged L-RN 125 Unique 4.5 1007 Max 126 1.142
L-CFN 124 Unique 4.7 1083 Start 134
L-RN 125 Unique 5.0 0
Swaged L-RN 124 Unique 5.0 1100 Max 136
L-RN 121 Unique 5.0 1194 Max 144
L-RN 125 Unique 5.1 1102 Start 138
L-CFN 124 Unique 5.2 1166 Max 145 1.140
L-CFP 121 Unique 5.3 1135 Max 137 1.100
L-RN 121 Unique 5.3 1135 Max 137
Lead 125 Unique 5.4 Start 0
L-RN 121 Unique 5.4 1145 Max 139 1.100
Lyman 356402 120 Unique 5.5 1125 135
L-RN 125 Unique 5.5 1122 Max 140 1.100
Lead 125 Unique 5.5 1139 Max 142 1.150
L-RN 125 Unique 6.0 1165 Max 146 1.150
Lyman 356402 120 Unique 6.0 1275 153 1.150

FMJ 124 Unique 3.7 900 Start 112 1.040
XTP, FMJ-FP, FMJ-RN 124 Unique 4.0 900 Start 112 1.142
JSP 125 Unique 4.1 859 107 1.120
JSP 125 Unique 4.1 859 Start 107
FMJ 124 Unique 4.1 950 118 1.040
FMJ 125 Unique 4.1 1000 125 1.090
FMJ 125 Unique 4.1 1000 Start 125 1.120
FMJ 124 Unique 4.1 1000 124 1.090
FMJ 124 Unique 4.4 1000 124 1.040
FMJ 125 Unique 4.6 1050 131 1.090
FMJ 124 Unique 4.7 1025 127 1.150
FMJ 124 Unique 4.7 1050 130 1.040
FMC 124 Unique 4.8 1100 Max 136
FMJ 124 Unique 4.9 1075 133 1.150
Hornady XTP 124 Unique 5.0 1093 136
XTP, FMJ-FP, FMJ-RN 124 Unique 5.0 1100 Max 136
FMJ 125 Unique 5.1 1100 138 1.090
FMJ 124 Unique 5.1 1100 136 1.040
FMJ 124 Unique 5.1 1100 Max 136
FMJ 124 Unique 5.1 1125 140 1.150
Speer SP, GD-HP, TMJ, XTP 124 Unique 5.2 1080 Start/Accurate 134 1.120-1.135
JSP 125 Unique 5.3 1118 140 1.120
JSP 125 Unique 5.3 1118 Max 140 1.120
JSP 125 Unique 5.5 1061 Start 133
JSP 125 Unique 5.5 1061 Start 133 1.125
FMJ 125 Unique 5.6 Start 0 1.142
Speer SP, GD-HP, TMJ 124 Unique 5.8 1180 Max 146 1.120-1.135
JSP 125 Unique 5.9 1192 Max 149 1.120
FMJ 125 Unique 5.9 1200 Max 150 1.100
JSP 125 Unique 6.0 1168 Max 146
JSP 125 Unique 6.0 1168 not max in BHP 146 1.090
FMJ 124 Unique 6.0 1170 Max 145
Hornady FMJ 124 Unique 6.0 1170 Max 145
FMJ 125 Unique 6.2 1170 Max 146
FMJ 125 Unique 6.2 1170 Max 146 1.090
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Old January 27, 2011, 10:57 PM   #6
serf 'rett
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Thanks

Oneounce
Allaint's web site only showed load data for jacketed bullets, Speer GDHP. Tried the powder people's web site first, but no dice on plated or lead bullets.

Noylj
Thanks Papa! I knew there was an old man out there that had the goods and would adopt me. Your "spreadsheet" looked like the one I started - wonder if we're kin? Yeah, I know if I blow myself up, then you've never heard my name. You pretty much nailed my plan - 10 rounds each, working from bottom up, inspect the brass, compare to factory ammo (got 6 different makes) and log the groups. Once we get the holes close, we can tinker and make the fine adjustments.
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Old January 27, 2011, 11:09 PM   #7
serf 'rett
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Setback

Was planning on putting some of the new reloads below the factory rounds so they would experience a couple of cycles. Will compare the two cycle length to the original length.
Will be running the reloads through Springfield XDm and don't expect problems, but I got a Kahr P9 that tends to mash factory rounds deeper so I'll be watching it like a hawk when I start running reloads through it.
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Old January 28, 2011, 08:33 AM   #8
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I use 5.3 gr. of Unique under my 115 gr. Berry's bullets and size all of my 9mm loads to 1.14". They run fine through both my P95 and my Hi-Point carbine. I had a bit of a problem early-on with the copper coating wanting to fold up when the bullets were seated, make sure you bell the cases enough so that doesn't happen.

Alliant shows a max of 6.3 grains under a GDHP (a jacketed bullet) so working 10-20% under that number should be fine. I also use www.handloads.com and www.reloadammo.com, in addition to the Lee data sheets and powder manufacturers' web sites, to correlate my loads and ensure I'm working with safe combinations.

Last edited by spacecoast; January 28, 2011 at 08:43 AM.
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Old January 28, 2011, 09:35 AM   #9
Walkalong
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You can't hurt those Berrys 115 Gr bullets in 9MM unless you push them really, really hard. Use any jacketed data that shows velocities under 1200 FPS or is at 90% or less of max and you will be fine. I run Raniers at 100% of jacketed data in 9MM with no problems. When I substitute a jacketed 115 RN the velocities are almost identical.
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Old January 28, 2011, 10:39 AM   #10
serf 'rett
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124 gr. vs. 125 gr. ?

spacecoast – I’d collected the information from handloads.com, but didn’t know about the reloadammo.com. Just printed their pages for 9mm and 40S&W. I had wondered if the plating could be pealed or damaged during seating. Tweaked my expanding die until I got “just enough” to start the bullets and it seemed to work good for the ten rounds I loaded last night.

Walkalong – I’m more interested in small groups than speed. From what I read, there appears to be some leadings toward better accuracy at speeds less than max, but that may be a pistol dependent thing. Wife is on the warpath about my new hobby, so I suspect it will be a while before I can bring a chrono home. For now, I will stick with the 90% of maximum “rule” with the idea of working my way up from 5% to 10% below the reduced max.

Got another question. Is it OK to use 125 gr. data for the 124 gr. bullets?
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Old January 28, 2011, 12:04 PM   #11
BDS-THR
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Quote:
Is it OK to use 125 gr. data for the 124 gr. bullets?
Yes.

But keep in mind the different bullet type, nose profile, diameter (.355" vs .356") and OAL used between the 124/125 load data, not just the bullet weight.
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Old January 29, 2011, 01:53 AM   #12
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When I shoot hot loads with Berry's bullets, the jacket spins off and puts little holes all over the target.

10mm especially.
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Old January 29, 2011, 08:08 AM   #13
Bigdog57
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Berry's Manufacturing state to use LEAD loading data, not jacketed data, and keep velocities under 1200 FPS. No problems using that suggestion.

These are soft lead bullets with only a very thin plating - not nearly as tough as jacketed bullets.
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Old January 29, 2011, 08:43 AM   #14
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DISCLAIMER - The following is posted for informational purposes. You are on your own in terms of responsibility if you choose to use this information.

115gr Berry's Plated RN-DS in front of 5.0gr Unique (EDIT: New Formula Unique)
Chrony'd at 990 fps out of a CZ-75B.
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Last edited by ZeSpectre; January 31, 2011 at 06:19 PM.
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Old January 29, 2011, 12:08 PM   #15
CrustyFN
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Quote:
Berry's Manufacturing state to use LEAD loading data, not jacketed data, and keep velocities under 1200 FPS.
I am curious where you found that info on Berry's site. I have only seen where they recommend jacketed data. This is from Berry's site.

Quote:
Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.
Quote:
Allaint's web site only showed load data for jacketed bullets,
And Berry's recommends jacketed data so you should be good to go. A couple of questions from your original post lead me to believe you don't have a manual. If not then I would recommend you get one ASAP. It will have the answers to your min and max questions.
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Old January 30, 2011, 09:37 PM   #16
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I just loaded my first loads with Power Pistol.(First loads using this powder) I loaded 115 grain RN Berry's bullet with 5.0 grains of Power Pistol with a C.O.L. of 1.135. I have not shot these bullets yet but I used some load data out of the Hornady book for their (Hornady) 115 grain round nosed jacketed bullet.
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Old January 31, 2011, 04:06 PM   #17
FrankenMauser
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Remember:
Unique has been reformulated.

Don't use old data with new powder, and don't use new data with old powder.
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Old January 31, 2011, 06:31 PM   #18
serf 'rett
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Thanks for the Input

Thanks for all the input. After reviewing recommendations made on this thread, my Speer manual, Lee manual and online information from Alliant, Handloads.com and reloadammo.com, I went with the following test loads:

Berry’s 124 HBFP; COAL – 1.120; Brass – Remington fired once
Unique: 4.7 – 5.3 grains, in 0.1 grain steps, 10 rounds at 4.7 & 4.8, then 5 rounds per step thereafter
Power Pistol: 5.4 – 6.2 grains, in 0.2 grain steps , 5 rounds per step

Berry’s 115 RN DS; COAL – 1.120; Brass – Remington fired once
Unique: 4.6 – 5.4 grains, in 0.2 grain steps, 5 rounds per step
Power Pistol: 5.4 – 6.2 grains, in 0.2 grain steps , 5 rounds per step

Original plan was 10 rounds each, but the Unique and RCBS Uniflow didn’t like each other, plus the wife wasn’t keen on my stuff covering the table and other surfaces. A powder trickler has been added to the short list. Figured five rounds would be a start as it would let me check for problems with over pressure and pistol cycling and give a general idea of grouping (plus I could get these done before hitting the sack Friday night).

Got out to the range Saturday afternoon, set up the folding chair and roller stand, placed targets at 15 yards and slowly worked through the reloads. Pistol cycled and rounds worked as expected. I now need to get my homemade grouping rig and engineering scale to record the data and pick the charges for further testing. There’s something about looking at targets with 4 grease rings touching each other (standard 1st shot flyer) that makes me feel like a junkie in the making – got to get another hit!
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Old January 31, 2011, 09:02 PM   #19
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And now you are hooked!

Welcome to the habit, I mean passion.
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Old January 31, 2011, 10:01 PM   #20
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Another one who has to load outside or in the garage...
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