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Old January 26, 2011, 10:38 AM   #1
PTMGunner16
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When to use lethal force?

When is the proper time to pull your gun?? At what point in any situation do you use your weapon? Has anyone every had to pull out on someone?
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Old January 26, 2011, 10:54 AM   #2
Steven_Seagal
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In all seriousness, I think the need to pull your gun differs from situation to situation. There are varying degrees of threat/perceived threat and there is not one constant situation that says "if this happens, then you pull your gun." You have to gauge the situation, determine whether your life/safety is threatened, and act swiftly - if you do not properly assess a situation and unjustifiably pull your weapon, you may be staring straight in the face of legal trouble.

I would say generally, if you tell the potential threat to stand down, announce that you fear for your safety and will defend yourself, and the threat does not retreat, THEN you can pull your weapon. If at that point, the threat still does not retreat and advances on you, pulling the trigger would likely be justified.

my $.02

Last edited by pax; January 29, 2011 at 12:36 PM. Reason: deleted inappropriate joke
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Old January 26, 2011, 11:31 AM   #3
glockcompact
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First deadly force should only be used when:
1: The attacker has the ability and shows intent to do you or someone else serious bodily harm that may result in death.

AND

2: All lesser means to defuse the situation have failed.


Now of course that can happen in a split second.

Scenario 1: You are a large middle age man (let’s say 6'2", 210 lbs) in good physical condition. Some small older lady (let’s say 5'2", 112) walks up to you in a parking lot and is obviously really ticked at you. She starts yelling right in your face about how you cut her off. Maybe she's even threatening you. Maybe she appears to be on some drugs. Maybe she takes a swing at you. Her hands are in plain site and they are empty.

She's showing intent but does not necessarily have the ability.

Scenario 2: You are an older lady. (5'2", 112) and a large man (6'2", 210) walks up to you in a parking lot. He comes up to you and asks for directions. You happen to notice he has a pistol under his unzipped jacket.

He has the ability to do you serious bodily harm but has not shown intent.

These are two easy examples and there are times when intent and ability can be harder to figure out. Every scenario can have millions of different variables but I hope this helps.

A friend once told me "never pull your weapon out of anger." If you pull your weapon out of anger you're wrong. Only pull the weapon out, out of fear. I've always liked that way of thinking.

Hope this helps.

Brit.
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Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.

Last edited by glockcompact; January 26, 2011 at 05:07 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old January 26, 2011, 12:16 PM   #4
Daryl
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When you're choice is to either use it or die, or use it or watch another innocent person die.

Ain't no glory in killing someone.

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Old January 26, 2011, 01:00 PM   #5
thunderbird101
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I have a question to add to this.....

Is it possible to pull a gun on someone without firing, in hopes of having them back off and therefore diffusing the situation without reaping legal actions? Is this advisable in any situation?

Ultimately I guess it comes down to the ability and intent of the BG to do harm, but in a split second situation, without a lot of training and experience (which I am sure a great deal of gun carriers do not have) who is going to be able to skillfully make that decision? I guess i personally would rather pull the gun and tell the BG to "Back the _____ away" then to hesitate on drawing and live (or not live) to regret it.

Can anyone give me legal advice on this train of thought?

Thank you!
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Old January 26, 2011, 01:14 PM   #6
dahermit
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Quote:
Is it possible to pull a gun on someone without firing, in hopes of having them back off and therefore diffusing the situation without reaping legal actions? Is this advisable in any situation?
In Michigan, it is against the law to "brandish" (point, show, display, etc.), a gun. Therefore, the court may or may not interpret your pulling of a gun as "brandishing".


Quote:
Ultimately I guess it comes down to the ability and intent of the BG to do harm, but in a split second situation, without a lot of training and experience (which I am sure a great deal of gun carriers do not have) who is going to be able to skillfully make that decision? I guess i personally would rather pull the gun and tell the BG to "Back the _____ away" then to hesitate on drawing and live (or not live) to regret it.
In Michigan (and other states), in the required CCW classes, you are given instruction on when and when you cannot use your concealed gun.

Quote:
Can anyone give me legal advice on this train of thought?
No, not unless they are a lawyer in the state of which you reside. And, if anyone does, and you take it, you would be foolish. Get your information you seek from a lawyer and from the CCW classes you must take before applying for the license.
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Old January 26, 2011, 01:17 PM   #7
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There are various qualifiers, but the shooter has to believe his life is at risk if he doesn't shoot.

The reasons to draw the gun in the first place are the same as for shooting.
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Old January 26, 2011, 01:49 PM   #8
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if you feel your life is in immediate danger, or if someone in a similar situation under the same circumstances would do the same. if you arent prepared (to kill/stop the threat) and legally in the right to pull your gun dont.
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Old January 26, 2011, 01:52 PM   #9
pax
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Three resources for you:

www.CorneredCat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx

and

www.CorneredCat.com/Legal/myths.aspx

and

www.useofforce.us



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Old January 26, 2011, 02:11 PM   #10
glockcompact
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Quote:
Buzzcook
The reasons to draw the gun in the first place are the same as for shooting.
This is correct!

Quote:
thunderbird101
Is it possible to pull a gun on someone without firing, in hopes of having them back off and therefore diffusing the situation without reaping legal actions? Is this advisable in any situation?
Think of it this way:

We know from Safety rule #1 "All guns are always loaded"

Therefore a pistol is ability
A pistol pointed at someone is ability and intent

IF you draw your weapon and point it at someone you are now showing ability and intent.

Verbal commands should have already came from you before you draw. Dont ever draw your weapon unless you've already decided there is no other way out of this one. And you're in fear for your life or someone elses.

This is why it is always best to have a good holster and carry in condition 1.

Brit.
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Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.

Last edited by glockcompact; January 26, 2011 at 07:36 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old January 26, 2011, 04:44 PM   #11
glockcompact
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Ok. I want to add one more thing into the mix. First though let me say that I'm not trying to sound like a no-it-all because I'm not. I'm just drawing from the training I've had. I know there are a lot of people on here that have more training than me and I like to here their thoughts also.

Quote:
When is the proper time to pull your gun?
Ok so I've stated that the attacker has to have ability and show intent.

There's one more item that I think has to be considered before you draw that weapon. That is your own limit.


Scenario 3: You walk down to the corner store late in the evening to get your fix. For me it's diet pepsi and some chips (I don't smoke). You have your ccw and you've had a decent amount of training. You feel very confident with your weapon at your side. Besides it's just another day. You walk into the convenience store and walk towards the back where the soda machine is. You noticed when you walked in that there were no cars out front and the only person you see inside is the cashier. You get your soda and head over to the chips. You here the dingaling sound of the front door and as you look over a man is screaming at the cashier and racking his pistol gripped shotgun. He points the shotgun at the cashier and screams "give me all the f'n money" So he obviously has ability and he's shown intent.
The question is - is this in your limit? Let's say it's 20 feet between you and him. He's lunging at the cashier with his shotgun and moving quite eraticaly. Shooting 20' free standing at a stationary target is not easy. Now a moving target that has a 12guage would be very difficult. This is where it's very important to understand your limit. He can swing that shotgun at you very quick and he only has to get close - It's a shotgun. I can see where depending on different variables at that time (cover and concealment) you may not decide to pull that weapon even though he has ability and has shown intent. I wouldn't feel very protected behind a shelf of Doritos.

Training and practice helps you find your own limit. I think it's very important to know your own limit.
Just my thoughts.

Brit.
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Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.

Last edited by glockcompact; January 26, 2011 at 05:08 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old January 26, 2011, 05:14 PM   #12
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This answer is som much more complicated than can be answered on a computer.

You need to find a qualified individual and maybe consult a qualified lawyer to even approach this answer.
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Old January 26, 2011, 05:19 PM   #13
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Opportunity, ability, and intent.

glockcompacts scenarios are good examples.
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Old January 26, 2011, 06:28 PM   #14
stormyone
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Self Defense.

or

Self Defense of another. (If that person was considered allowed to use deadly force)


*Edit - But all States are different.

These 4 things must be met.

The bad guy must
1. Have the ability. (A knife in his hand)
2. The intent. (bad guy states "I'm going to cut you)
3. The opportunity. (Bad guy is looking right at you 3 feet away)

and you must feel like you are in

4. Jeopardy (Of severe harm or death).

Again, your State may be different.

Last edited by stormyone; January 26, 2011 at 06:46 PM.
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Old January 26, 2011, 09:07 PM   #15
lee n. field
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Quote:
When is the proper time to pull your gun?? At what point in any situation do you use your weapon?
What state do you live in?
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Old January 26, 2011, 10:13 PM   #16
youngunz4life
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answer to OP's question

when you have an honest, reasonable fear for the life of yourself or family at the given moment you draw and/or shoot.
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Old January 26, 2011, 11:02 PM   #17
nygunbroker
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Reason and Force

Something I think fits in to this topic.

The Gun is Civilization by Marko Kloos

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: Reason and Force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for “automatic rule” by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a forced monopoly.Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won, by the physically superior participants. The result is overwhelming injury inflicted on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation… and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Marko Kloos

Last edited by pax; January 27, 2011 at 07:39 AM. Reason: Corrected attribution
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Old January 26, 2011, 11:56 PM   #18
AcridSaint
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Depends on your state and what you value in life. The question is just too open. First you need to define what is legal and illegal, then make informed decisions. There may well be scenarios that are legal and proper and you choose not to shoot, there may also be some situations that you would choose to shoot regardless of the legal implications. It's just not black and white.
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Old January 27, 2011, 12:00 AM   #19
B.N.Real
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Only when you know you are in a situation where you are going to die and there is no other possible way you can prevent it other then to draw and fire your weapon.

There are no absolutes either.

If you draw your weapon and the threat concedes he is about to die and stops attacking you ,you cannot fire on him.

Just pulling your firearm from your holster or pocket can get you thrown in jail if you cannot prove in court why you did it.

I hear alot of people that talk a boatload of nonsense about them pulling guns on people that are acting threatening but actually not threatening them in any way.

Never-ever do this.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

As a lawful handgun owner and user,you should act like there is always someone listening to everything you say in person and write on the internet about your firearms and how you will use them.

I will have no problems with defending myself or my wifes life by using my handguns but that's probably the only time I would ever use them in that way.

There is a huge misunderstanding from some gun owners that they can stop people from stealing their property.

I had a neighbor do this with a twenty two rifle about twenty years ago against two dirtbags that just went into his shed and walked down his driveway with two saws they just stole out of his shed.

He shot one of the guy's in the legs to stop him from leaving the scene.

Those two saws cost that homeowner fourty thousand dollars in legal fees and doctors bills for the guy he shot and the homeowner almost went to jail.

You must be smart and do everything you can before the fact to not get yourself in a situation where you might need to draw your weapon.

You must also plan ahead if you think you might use your weapon for say,home defense,so that you can confirm that the people you love are out of harms way before you try to stop a home threat.

You don't want to be startled and shoot someone,one of your kids invited over to the house that night.

There is alot of self training you must do to get this decison right and it will be the most important decision you will ever have to make.

I hope you never have to fire on another person.
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Old January 27, 2011, 03:19 AM   #20
Eagle0711
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Have come very close on a few occasions. Have had to talk myself out of shooting an aggressor.

If you can get away that's always the best. Why shoot someone and take a life if you can somehow get out of it. A few instances I would have been within the legal justifaction, but could safely leave.

If I was threated with no way out with a weapon in the BGs hand then I would shoot as fast and accurately as I'm capable of until he was no longer a threat.

You do have to be willing.
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Old January 27, 2011, 04:08 AM   #21
therewolf
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If I felt I could draw and point the gun, and it would save my life, WITHOUT

shooting the BG, I would do it, but only if it were down to either show him or

shoot him, I guess.

You're faced with a dilemma here. If you shoot the guy, he's dead, he can't

testify against you. You brandish the weapon, even if you don't actually point it

at someone, it's very easy for them to lie, say you pointed it, THEN you get

charged with a third-degree felony.

Tough choice, but I guess I'd still rather risk standing in court, rather than

live with killing someone.

With only moments to make the right decision, I guess we all hope we'll make

the right choice, and LE will see it our way.
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Old January 27, 2011, 04:15 AM   #22
AcridSaint
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If you're clearing leather then things are already worse than bad. Thinking of brandishing as a deterrent is, in my mind, a dangerous mindset.
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Old January 27, 2011, 04:44 AM   #23
Ryder
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We are not authorized to pull a gun without using it in this state. It's only a last resort solution.
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Old January 27, 2011, 07:49 AM   #24
Jamie B
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A gun should not be pulled unless it is going to be used.

Common sense.
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Old January 27, 2011, 04:20 PM   #25
markj
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Take a class in your state and ask these questions there. Answer may differ state to state which is insane but what the heck.
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