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Old December 20, 2013, 05:01 AM   #1
Pond, James Pond
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What do these abbreviations mean?

FFL?! Whassat, then?

C&R? Wossit for?

OK, I know C&R is Curio and Relic, but I am comfused as to why you need what appears to be a particular licence to buy a 60 year old bolt, but you can virtually just walk in and buy a brand new Armalite.

Why the distinction?

FFLs, I have understood as some kind of means of making cross state gun purchases.
Correct? Close? Way off?
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Old December 20, 2013, 06:10 AM   #2
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C&R is like a Luger with a shoulder stock. Since it is a very old gun and worth a lot of money and little chance to be used in a crime the ATF makes it a legal C&R.
If you put the same stock on a Beretta 92 you’re in trouble
Federal Fire Arms license
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Old December 20, 2013, 06:28 AM   #3
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FFL stands for Federal Firearms License.

A Curio and Relics (C&R) is a form of FFL license that can be issued to collectors of weapons designated as a Curio or Relic (generally firearms that are 50 years old or of some sort of collector's interest). The advantage to obtaining a C&R is that it allows a collector to purchase across state lines without going though an FFL for C&R firearms.

For example, if I have a C&R license, and I find a guy that has a Mosin-Nagant that I really want, he can send the weapon directly to me. If I don't have the license, I have to have it shipped to an FFL nearby, and pay the fee that dealer would charge.

ETA: Here is the BATFE FAQs on Curio and Relic laws in the US
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Old December 20, 2013, 06:38 AM   #4
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Jimmy nailed it. C&R FFLs are MUCH cheaper then regular ffls as well. A C&R license will run you $30 for a 3 year license. Some online stores(Brownells, Grafs, ect) will also give you dealer pricing on their items.
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Old December 20, 2013, 06:48 AM   #5
Pond, James Pond
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OK, so C&R is a sort of FFL. What, then, does an FFL actually do?

Is it just about buying across States?
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Old December 20, 2013, 07:03 AM   #6
JimmyR
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An FFL is a license granted to a person by the BATFE to buy, sell, and deal in firearms.

There are various types of licenses granted by the BATFE of which the most common are the Type 1 (Think your local gun shop- able to buy, sell, and commercially deal in firearms), and Type 3- the C&R FFL.

FULL LIST OF FFLs
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Old December 20, 2013, 10:13 AM   #7
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I'll also add that a C&R license does not allow the holder to engage in the business of buying and selling firearms. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curi...s.html#dealers. The one disadvantage of having a C&R license is that there is a record keeping responsibility which does not apply to non-licensed firearm owners. It is my understanding these records are subject to inspection by the federal government but rarely are. The records do not have to be turned over to the government if the license expires for some reason. Records from "normal" licensed dealers are turned over to the the federal government if the dealer goes out of business.

Someone can correct me about the record keeping portion if I'm wrong. I do not have a C&R and one of the reasons is that I don't want to be obligated to keep and make records available. Also, I do not have a lot of C&R firearms.
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Old December 20, 2013, 01:15 PM   #8
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KyJim, you are basically correct about the C&R record-keeping requirement, but it's important to emphasize one detail you didn't mention.

C&R licensees only have to record transactions that (a) involve a C&R firearm, and (b) occur during the time that the licensee holds the license. The licensee is under no obligation to keep records of non-C&R firearm transactions, nor is he/she obligated to record any information about C&R firearms that he/she owns continuously and does not obtain or transfer away. IOW the records are only intended to be a "snapshot" of C&R transfers that occur while the license is in force.

Also, PJP, the technical classification of a C&R FFL is an 03 Collector license, and many legal documents use the phrase "licensed collector" to describe this class of licensee. The classes of licenses commonly held by US gun dealers are 01 Dealer, 02 Pawnbroker, and 07 Manufacturer. The latter classes allow the licensee to do certain things that aren't allowed under the former classes, so some dealers hold an 02 or 07 license even though they don't necessarily have a pawn shop or a true manufacturing operation.
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Last edited by carguychris; December 20, 2013 at 01:25 PM. Reason: minor reword...
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Old December 20, 2013, 01:22 PM   #9
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One other thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzieman
C&R is like a Luger with a shoulder stock. Since it is a very old gun and worth a lot of money and little chance to be used in a crime the ATF makes it a legal C&R.
If you put the same stock on a Beretta 92 you’re in trouble
Ozzieman, be aware that when you're discussing shoulder-stocked C&R pistols that are exempted from the NFA, only certain specific pistol and stock combinations are exempt. The ATF C&R book painstakingly lists the legal NFA-exempt pistol and stock combinations, some of which are VERY specific, the Luger list in particular.

You may be aware of this, but I don't want an unsuspecting future reader to erroneously conclude that one is free to add ANY shoulder stock to ANY Luger Parabellum pistol, without jumping through NFA hoops, simply because all vintage Lugers are C&R. This is NOT the case.
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Last edited by carguychris; December 20, 2013 at 01:27 PM. Reason: minor reword...
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Old December 20, 2013, 04:05 PM   #10
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In simplest terms, a FFL is what you have to have if you are going to sell firearms as a business. All guns stores, pawn shops, pet food stores etc that sell guns have to have a FFL.
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Old December 20, 2013, 07:24 PM   #11
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FFL= Federal firearms license. This is the license issued to people engaged in the business of buying/selling, repairing, modifying, or manufacturing firearms, ammunition, or controlled parts or devices. Every gun shop, gunsmith, commercial reloader, and manufacturer must be licensed in order to be in business in the firearms field. Manufacturers who make accessories, parts, devices other than class 3 (silencers/suppressors, automatic weapons) do not need an FFL even if they are making firearms parts, but many have them anyway.

C&R= Curios and relics license. This is a special class of Federal Firearms License (FFL). This license allows the holder to purchase firearms for a collection directly from FFL licensees without submitting to a background check for each purchase, provided the firearms meet the curio or relic criteria, and are included on the BATFE's curios and relics list.
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Old December 21, 2013, 11:38 AM   #12
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch
[The C&R] license allows the holder to purchase firearms for a collection... provided the firearms meet the curio or relic criteria, and are included on the BATFE's curios and relics list.
(emphasis mine)

Scorch, IMHO the "and" that I've boldfaced should be an "or". The ATF list is not intended to be comprehensive; it only lists firearms that the BATFE has specifically determined to be C&R-eligible before the date that the list was last updated, which was 3-1/2 years ago (June 2010) as I write this. Here's a link to the current book and updates:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...ics/index.html

Many, many guns- likely the majority of all C&R firearms in the USA- are C&R by default due to the 50-year age rule. Some other firearms are C&R by virtue of an ATF certification letter since the last list update, and some individual firearms are C&R by specific association to "some historical figure, period, or event" (27 CFR Section 478.11). The ATF list is NOT intended to list all of these; as I wrote in a past thread, this would make it the size of an encyclopedia, rather than the size of a weekly news magazine.
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Old December 21, 2013, 08:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
C&R FFLs are MUCH cheaper then regular ffls as well.
Let's rephrase that. Ask anyone with a 03 (C&R) what it has cost them over the years.


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Old December 21, 2013, 10:35 PM   #14
dakota.potts
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Pond, an FFL stands for a Federal Firearms License (or Licensee). You have to have an FFL t deal in the business of buying guns or manufacturing with the intent to sell. There are different types of FFL's. C&R holders are one of them. It means that you have a Federal Firearms License to trade Curio & Relic firearms. FFL's can ship across state lines to other FFl's. In this way, C&R holders can ship C&R guns to each other across state lines without a background check, because they've passed the checks to get the license and have requirements about keeping records.

You have to have an FFL if you make a business of selling guns. You can collect them and sell as part of a collection, but when you start dealing in large volumes and making money enough that it's part of a business, you must get an FFL.

If I want to sell a handgun or long gun, in most states, I can make a private sale to someone of age in my state without going through an FFL or background check. However, if I list a gun for sale on Gunbroker and somebody from Texas (out of state) wants to buy it, I must ship it from my FFL to theirs. In this way I can sell the firearm across state lines if it is legal to own it in the state I am sending it to. The buyer must then pick it up there and pay for the shipping, FFL transfer, and $5 for the background check.

It's not just about selling across state lines, but that is the way that most people tend to deal with them because that's all many people use an FFL for.

If I wanted to own a gun shop or become a manufacturer of guns for sale, I would have to obtain an FFL and do all that comes with that. Another interesting thing is that FFL's, with demo letters, may own automatic firearms that the general public may not own for the purpose of demonstrating them to law enforcement and (maybe?) military.

FFLs are bound by rules that private sellers don't have. For instance, I'm 18. In my state I can buy a handgun from a private seller or receive it as a gift, but to buy it from an FFL I must be 18. Same with handgun ammo and lower receivers for firearms. I can also buy a long gun from an FFL in a different state, but not a handgun. Lots of peculiarities of US federal and state laws.
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