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Old February 7, 2011, 05:16 PM   #51
Ben Towe
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As someone's signature says on here... "A hit with .45 beats a hit with a .22 every time. A hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .50 BMG every time." Any gun is better than no gun. Let her use what she can use. I would feel much safer if she had to back my play with a .22 she was comfortable with than a .357 she was afraid of.
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Old February 12, 2011, 10:50 PM   #52
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Citinseattle

Let's all forget caliber for a moment. We are going thru a situation similar to yours. If she is comfortable with a 22, go with it. Try to move up gradually. Even a bad 22 is better than a great plan on paper and no protection.
Why do I feel like this? I have a friend with the same RA as you talk about. She has used a 22. She is comfortable with that rather than nothing.

I like a 9mm. I certainly would not stand in front of someone with a 22 and let them fire while I tell them how ineffective it is. I do understand certain calibers are better. I just think given a certain situation anything is better than nothing.

My 2 cents. It is worth what I charged you for it and no more. It is your decision. Best of Luck.
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Old June 16, 2012, 03:08 PM   #53
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American Arms. 22 Magnum 1 1/8 Barrel

For the last 12 years of my 30 years on the police force I have carried my American Arms. 22 mag every day while working. I called it my "Get The Hell Off Me" gun. Now that Hornaty has their new V-Max round out I love it even more. I have taken it to the police range and shot everything I could come up with. Their new 30 gr. Round with 2200 fps out of a rifle does wonders out of my 1 1/8 barrel. Their polymer tip kills a 2x4. Has to do damage to a bad guy. Still love my Sig 220 though.
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Old June 17, 2012, 02:04 PM   #54
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Hey Milkrun, wondering if you have your rounds confused ... Hornady's new Critical Defense FTX is the one with the plugged tip, it's 45gr. In a magazine test it did over 1,000 fps from a one-inch barrel ... I think they do make a 30gr rd, but it's for squirrels and plinking, the FTX is far superior for "getting somebody off" you, IMHO ... If you're looking for some alternatives, Speer has a 40gr Gold Dot JHP for .22mag ... and Winchester has also joined the club, tho I haven't seen their rounds in stores yet ... have fired both the Hornady and Speer from my NAA Pug and both are very accurate at 7yds with no recoil to speak of ...
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Old June 17, 2012, 04:01 PM   #55
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I don't think anyone can argue that the .22 is a great round for dispatching game/slaughtering livestock, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good SD choice.
I'd repeat what someone else already said about trying a lighter shooting 38spcl first. Or try a sp101. They weight about 14lbs and as such soak up far more recoil than the air-weight j-frames.
That being said if all she can handle is .22 it's far better than nothing.
I'd go with one of the j-frame size Tauri - or one of the S&W's if you can find it. I definitely think that with rimfire you'd want to go with a double action revolver. If you have a misfire, just pull the trigger again.
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Old June 17, 2012, 05:04 PM   #56
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I've shot thousands of 22mag rounds out of my Single Six. As I've stated before I was perfectly comfortable carrying it as a defense against Cougars. I've seen the effect of this round downrange on various objects and can personally testify that it penetrates better than any non-magnum round I've seen. I know that's a strong statement but while my buddies were moving upward in caliber I kept the same gun. I think most of you can guess the result of that, I ended up more accurate, faster, etc. THAT is the whole point here. I could reliably and quickly place my shot in a VERY small area. In short my shots were more likely to kill than theirs. Get her a high capacity 22mag revolver, run a few thousand 22lrs through it, stand back and let HER defend YOU
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Old June 17, 2012, 05:22 PM   #57
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Here's another thought that I'm sure will rile up a few people here. If the gun I'm shooting has allowed me to practice that much and get that good and the bad guy in front of me has a short range weapon (knife, club metal bar etc.) do I need to kill him? On my worst day at self defense ranges I could keep all six shots inside of a quarter with my Ruger. Knee capping a bad guy no problem. Before anybody starts to inform me you can't shoot accurately when you have Adrenaline in your system keep two things in mind, I've made two different headshots on rattlesnakes about to strike in those type of conditions, and I'm a grouchy old retired night shift nurse who has started IV's in the middle of coding patients who were more dead than alive at 3AM in semi darkness. I'm not superhuman. Both things were a result of enough practice to make what you're doing instinctive.
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Old June 17, 2012, 09:47 PM   #58
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On the caliber note... Ya,.22 is small, but would you stand at arm distance and take a few .22 to the chest, neck, or head? I wouldnt. Plus most crime is based on how easy it is to commit. Most women are an easy target, but once they pull a gun, grandma isnt an easy target now.
I say .22lr is better than a kick or bite. If you want to test this then take some 6x6 and hit it till your blue in the face. Now shoot it with even .22lr promise you will think differently. (Except you Mr. Norris, you dont count)
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Old June 18, 2012, 10:19 AM   #59
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Remember that the goal is to quickly stop an assailant before he can hurt you (or someone else). So the real question is how quickly and reliably being shot with a particular cartridge will force an attacker to stop whatever he is doing to try to hurt you (or someone else).

So while a .22 can certainly kill someone; but whether, if he's attacking you, a .22 will stop him quickly enough to keep him from hurting you badly is another question entirely.

There are four ways in which shooting someone stops him:
  1. psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
  2. massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
  3. breaking major skeletal support structures
  4. damaging the central nervous system.

Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't; and there are no guarantees.

Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility. But if the assailant has a gun, he can still shoot. And it will take a reasonably powerful round to reliably penetrate and break a large bone, like the pelvis.

Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target. And sometimes significant penetration will be needed to reach it.

The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help.

So as a rule of thumb --
  • More holes are better than fewer holes.
  • Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
  • Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  • Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  • There are no magic bullets.

The bottom line is that a lower power cartridge with a smaller caliber bullet will make smaller holes and may not be able to as reliably penetrate to where those holes need to be to be most effective.

Or to put it another way, why would anyone think that a .22 will be enough when sometimes a .357 Magnum isn't necessarily enough. LAPD Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty.
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Old June 18, 2012, 11:20 AM   #60
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Im not being overly critical but text doesnt convey tone... I never understand the thinking that 22 anything is a good choice for anything but small game, targets and plinking.

By default most self defense situations are very, very close ranged affairs where stopping the threat is at a premium and time is very short and finite... Its your life, carry what you will but I would never recommend 22 for a self defense anything.
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Old June 18, 2012, 07:08 PM   #61
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Quote:
Here's another thought that I'm sure will rile up a few people here. If the gun I'm shooting has allowed me to practice that much and get that good and the bad guy in front of me has a short range weapon (knife, club metal bar etc.) do I need to kill him? On my worst day at self defense ranges I could keep all six shots inside of a quarter with my Ruger.
Legally, it does not matter if you aim at his upper center chest, at his cerebral cortex, at his pelvis, at his kneecap, or at his right big toe. In EVERY case, when you use a firearm, you are using lethal force.

Morally and practically, the law is written that way because any time you launch a bullet at someone, you run a strong risk of either killing them or crippling them for life. This is true even if you aim at some "non-essential" body part and hit exactly what you aim at.

If you are not at peace with the idea of killing someone who is trying to kill you, then carrying a firearm is not for you.

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Old June 18, 2012, 07:17 PM   #62
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I would try a 38 in a poly frame yes it is lighter but it also flexes and in my experience reduces felt recoil more then the weight of a steel frame.

I would never recommend anything smaller then a 38 and personally would never carry anything less then 357 mag for SD. Hope you find something that strikes the right balance.
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Old June 21, 2012, 12:38 AM   #63
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I agree pax that the moment you start carrying a ccw, let alone draw it, you should be resigned to the thought of killing with it. While I respect your experience with firearms and see this as undeniable truth, I may have a little more insight into what happens to humans after they kill another human. In 20 years of spinal cord and brain injury rehab nursing I saw hundreds of veterans as well as normal everyday joes off the street after they had killed someone. In most cases it mattered surprisingly little whether the other persons death was justified, it was still devastating. A huge number of veterans ended up with us because of their substance abuse problems led to horrible accidents. I'm not shooting his knee for him, I'm shooting it because I know for sure what it's going to do to me. That being said, me or my loved ones dead, or me carrying a burden? Easy simple decision.
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Old June 21, 2012, 08:23 AM   #64
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For some people (i.e. my 78 year old Mother in Law), their physical condition severely limits their choice of weapon.

My Mother in Law has arthritis in her hands, and she has lost hand strength over the years. She used to be quite nimble and able, and has enthusiastically played golf her whole life.

She can't load rounds into a magazine. She has difficulty racking a slide... therefore, she shoots a revolver. But she doesn't have the hand strength to shoot DA for more than a few rounds, even when using a S&W K-22 with a fabulous trigger. Her preferred method is to shoot SA, with a two handed grip, and use the left hand to cock the hammer. She is actually pretty good shooting this way. It has to be a fairly light weight weapon, and low recoil. For her, the choice came down to a 22 LR revolver.

After reading this thread, I may see if she is interested in a 22 mag revolver.
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Old June 21, 2012, 08:44 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Remember that the goal is to quickly stop an assailant before he can hurt you (or someone else).
That can be a goal, but but on the way to it, other matters must be addressed first. The most prominant of those is finding an item a person can and will shoot. I am positive that my wife could not safely shoot a .357 snub nose revolver, so I wouldn't suggest that she carry one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Or to put it another way, why would anyone think that a .22 will be enough when sometimes a .357 Magnum isn't necessarily enough.
Because "enough" at the receiving end may be "too much" at the delivering end. I would imagine that a gentle .22lr semi-automatic would be better protection for a woman than, say, pepper spray.


One topic I've never seen addressed is whether simply having a firearm, even one that may not be the most effective, would change the way a woman non-verbally communicates weakness to a predator. As I understand the predatory mindset, it is the signal of weakness that draws predation, and knowing that she may have options might influence her demeanor.
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Old June 21, 2012, 09:59 AM   #66
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Quote:
Posted by scrubcedar: If the gun I'm shooting has allowed me to practice that much and get that good and the bad guy in front of me has a short range weapon (knife, club metal bar etc.) do I need to kill him?
Pax has addressed the deadly force issue.
Quote:
On my worst day at self defense ranges I could keep all six shots inside of a quarter with my Ruger.
What you can do on a stationary target at the range has nothing at all to do with where you bullets wii strike a rapidly moving attacker.

Quote:
Knee capping a bad guy no problem.
Ya think?
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Old June 21, 2012, 10:06 AM   #67
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Understand that caliber is not the only or even necessarily the biggest determinant of recoil. Recoil between different guns in the same caliber and different loads in the same gun varies wildly, too.

A 4" DA/SA K-frame (S&W) or Six (Ruger) or the equivalent with 148-gr. wadcutters is an extremely light-recoiling load, but effective for self-defense.

Some 9mm guns like the M&P have a reputation for being light recoiling for caliber.

Also full-size guns like the Sig P226 or Beretta M9.
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Old June 21, 2012, 10:06 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile
...Because "enough" at the receiving end may be "too much" at the delivering end. I would imagine that a gentle .22lr semi-automatic would be better protection for a woman than, say, pepper spray....
There may of course be circumstances in which a small caliber firearm must be pressed into service for self defense. If all one has at a time of need, one will need to make do with what he has. If one has physical limitations, one must make do with what he can manage.

But one also needs to be realistic about the limitations of that cartridge choice. He is trading possible effectiveness for other attributes -- such as that it's what he has or it's all that he can manage.
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Old June 21, 2012, 07:02 PM   #69
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Quote:
Posted by scrubcedar: If the gun I'm shooting has allowed me to practice that much and get that good and the bad guy in front of me has a short range weapon (knife, club metal bar etc.) do I need to kill him?

Pax has addressed the deadly force issue.

Quote:
On my worst day at self defense ranges I could keep all six shots inside of a quarter with my Ruger.

What you can do on a stationary target at the range has nothing at all to do with where you bullets wii strike a rapidly moving attacker.


Quote:
Knee capping a bad guy no problem.

Ya think?

I understand where you're coming from. If you read the post it came out of more carefully you will find no mention of a RUNNING attacker. I don't frankly care at that point what court defines deadly force a certain way, I'm trying to effect a certain result with a lighter than normal tool. The rattlesnakes I shot would have left me just as dead as a human I assure you, head shots on both IMMEDIATELY stopped the attack. No I was not saying to try for that precise of a target on a running human. That's not how most muggers etc. operate. They threaten you from a set distance to get you to hand over your valuables. If I have a .22 chest shots are not likely to be immediately effective. I've seen enough GSW's to state that easily. If he is threatening me rather than tackling me, Immoblizing his leg makes more sense. A head shot is the next choice but listen to the old Brain injury nurse, I've seen more people live through a .22 to the head than you think! In the tackling/rushing scenario I wouldn't be confident of any of my.22 slugs being accurate and effective. I might very well wait until first contact and try to put multiple rounds in his head. Chest shots from a .22 would be as far down on my list of actions as possible, people can die from them but it doesn't happen quickly. In the scenario where he hasn't rushed you yet your best chance to stop him is to CRIPPLE HIM. I shoot his knee, you shoot his chest, which of us is more likely to have to continue to fight him? This post is probably what I should have written in the beginning. If I mislead anyone I apologise. There is no way to count the number of GSW's I've seen in 20 years of Trauma Nursing in a big city. My strongest contribution at this point may be what happens after the trigger is pulled. If I say something that doesn't make sense ask me to clarify I'm new here and I may be saying something different than you think.
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Old June 21, 2012, 07:40 PM   #70
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I disagree with choosing a 22 to be your go-to self defense firearm, but every individual needs to make his/her own choice on the matter. my mouse gun is a 38 and my primary is a 357 and that is only my choice.
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Old June 21, 2012, 07:52 PM   #71
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scrubcedar,

My point was that the law is written the way it is because putting a bullet into someone else's body -- even if it is "just" their knee! -- is very likely to kill them or to cripple them for life. If you aren't willing to accept that possibility, you should not be carrying a gun.

This doesn't say anything about whether or not the person's death is a desirable outcome, or whether the shooter really wanted him to die. It simply recognizes that death is in fact a very likely possibility whenever you pull the trigger... no matter where you aim to hit.

Killing someone is tough. It changes you. This is particularly and most heart-breakingly true for people who did not count the cost in advance.

If you're not willing to accept the possibility of killing another human being when you launch that bullet, you should not carry a gun at all. If you carry it, you may be tempted to use it. If you use it, you may kill someone. And this is true no matter what part of their body you aim at.

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Old June 21, 2012, 08:34 PM   #72
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Fair enough. I couldn't agree with you more. I've unfortunately nearly had to fire at someone who was trying to harm my daughter within the last few months. We were at home so I grabbed the shotgun because it was far more likely to kill him quickly before he harmed anyone (we had reports he had a pistol of some sort.) I would have pulled the trigger without hesitation. We called the police, they intercepted him Thank God. It wasn't until that point that I TRULY knew whether I could pull the trigger. My first thought was not about mercy,wounding,or the Law. My first thought was the maximum amount of force I could bring to bear to protect my Family. Sort of puts the debate about using a .22 in perspective.
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Old June 21, 2012, 08:42 PM   #73
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Expecting blood (pressure) loss to immediately incapacitate anyone is a very bad move. People can do very destructive things in the time it takes to bleed out-regardless of what caliber they have been shot with, or where they have been shot-no matter WHAT caliber you use.
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Old June 21, 2012, 09:07 PM   #74
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Quote:
Posted by scrubcedar: No I was not saying to try for that precise of a target on a running human. That's not how most muggers etc. operate. They threaten you from a set distance to get you to hand over your valuables.
If he has a "short range weapon '(knife, club metal bar etc.)' ", he will have to be quite close to you to credibly pose an imminent threat of death or serious injury. So close that when you start to draw, he will most likely close the distance very quickly indeed.

And if he does not try to do so, you will have a very hard time justifying pulling the trigger.

Have you considered taking some training?
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Old June 21, 2012, 09:48 PM   #75
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"Quite close" when an assailant is armed with a knife or club is about 21 feet, not much more than the length of a car or SUV. The distance can be closed in one or two seconds, about the length of time needed to react, draw, present, and fire a weapon. You will need to shoot instinctively to stop him, not shoot deliberately to wound.
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