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Old January 19, 2011, 01:58 PM   #1
Colduglandon
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Jacketed Pistol Bullets in Black Powder

I read an article today in the American Rifleman about the use of Jacketed Pistol Bullets with sabots in Black Powder rifles. Has anyone tried this? My CVA has a 1/48 barrel. Am I pretty much limited to round ball ammunition.
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Old January 19, 2011, 02:07 PM   #2
Pahoo
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Quote:
Has anyone tried this? My CVA has a 1/48 barrel.
This is done, all the time and nothing new. Looking at .44 or .45 Pistol bullet on a .50M/L with the appropriate "Sabot". Your twist should be fine. .....



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Old January 20, 2011, 04:32 AM   #3
arcticap
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Some 1 in 48" twist rifles will shoot them better than others. But if you limit the bullet to one of medium length and weight of about 240 grains or so, then that will increase the chances that it will shoot well.
Even a .45 caliber pure lead conical like the TC Maxi Hunter will shoot fairly well with a .50 caliber sabot. Just about to the same point of impact as a patched round ball at 50 yards and beyond, although it does need a stout powder charge.

Last edited by arcticap; January 20, 2011 at 04:39 AM.
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Old January 20, 2011, 07:33 AM   #4
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Pistol bullets in a 1-48 twist muzzleloader.

Don't waste your money on expensive jacketed bullets. I have used the Lyman 215 gr. 44 cast bullet in a 1-48 twist muzzleloader. Be sure to use a sabot made for the 44 cal. bullet. The short 215 gr. bullet works best with that twist. The heavier bullets such as the 240 or 250 gr. bullets are too long to stabilize in that twist. I was getting 3" to 4" groups at a 100 yards with 75 gr. FFG Goex BP, for me that was good enough for 100 yard deer hunting. I'm sure it will do better with some tweeking of powder charges. The Lyman 215 is a GC design bullet. I don't use the GC. I think the inexpensive Lee 214 gr 44mold would work well also.
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Old January 20, 2011, 10:27 AM   #5
Rifleman1776
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The right combo will work. But, I have to ask, "why?". There are only theoretical gains, if any. It would be like strapping a V-8 engine onto a wagon designed to be horse drawn.
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Old January 20, 2011, 11:14 AM   #6
Pahoo
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Don't waste your money on expensive jacketed bullets.
Good point and I have been using cast bullets for a number of years. I save the jacketed bullets for my pistol rounds. The cast bullets work just fine. ..



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Old January 21, 2011, 02:41 AM   #7
arcticap
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Originally Posted by Rifleman1776
The right combo will work. But, I have to ask, "why?". There are only theoretical gains, if any.
I don't agree that the gains from using saboted bullets are only theoretical.

1. The better sectional density of the smaller [but heavier] caliber bullet will provide an increase in penetration verses the larger diameter (but lighter) patched round ball. That translates into the better possibility of a pass through shot and that an angle shot will do more lethal damage to large game.
More penetration can create a longer wound channel into vital organs that the PRB might not even be able to reach.

2. Saboted bullets tend to very consistently shoot to the same point of impact with heavy hunting loads from a cold, clean barrel. That can't always be said to hold true for a patched round ball from a 1 in 48" twist barrel that's loaded with a similar powder charge.

Experimentation can show which loads will shoot better from an individual gun and whether any potential gains are real or just imaginary.

Last edited by arcticap; January 21, 2011 at 02:52 AM.
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Old January 21, 2011, 10:24 AM   #8
Rifleman1776
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articap, I know what you are saying.
But, you are thinking like one who equates everything with modern guns.
A traditional muzzle loader is not a 30-06 and trying to pretend differently is an exercise in frustration.
As one who has shot muzzle loaders, almost as a life passion, for over 40 years, I understand the difference.
They are different critters. A muzzle loader using a patched, pure soft lead, round ball is an excellent killer. All the fantasies about 'penetration' , knock-down-power, sectional density do not kill any better than a well placed prb.
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Old January 21, 2011, 01:41 PM   #9
arcticap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Morceau
I read an article today in the American Rifleman about the use of Jacketed Pistol Bullets with sabots in Black Powder rifles. Has anyone tried this? My CVA has a 1/48 barrel. Am I pretty much limited to round ball ammunition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifleman1776
A muzzle loader using a patched, pure soft lead, round ball is an excellent killer. All the fantasies about 'penetration' , knock-down-power, sectional density do not kill any better than a well placed prb.
Medium and faster twist barrels are pre-civil war technology. They do have some advantages over the slow twist round ball barrels.
It's not about using round balls for ammunition as much as it's about the rate of barrel twist which tends to favor shooting conical bullets with heavier powder charges that are used for hunting and longer distance shooting.
That was proven during the Civil War by snipers.
No one thinks that a round ball isn't lethal or won't work. The OP simply wanted to know if he could shoot saboted bullets with his 1/48" barrel twist rate. The answer is yes.
Whether round balls can kill or not doesn't address that original question. And I doubt that any Civil War General would have told his soldiers to only shoot round balls.
Which ammunition folks choose to shoot with depends on their gun.

Last edited by arcticap; January 21, 2011 at 02:00 PM.
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Old January 21, 2011, 02:08 PM   #10
Rifleman1776
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Medium and faster twist barrels are pre-civil war technology.
It would be hard to find a statement less accurate.

I don't know where you get this 'stuff', I won't call it 'information' because it isn't.
Common 16th and 17th century twists were 1:48; 1:66; 1:72 and many variations in that range.
Don't take my word for it. Take a trip to the G.M. Davis gun museum in Claremore, Oklahoma and look at their vast collection. Each gun is labeled with pertinent information, including barrel twist. With your own eyeballs looking at original guns you can verify what is real and what is not for yourself.
I don't want to get into an argument. Others may PM me with questions about traditional muzzle loading rifles. I'll be glad to lend some of my nearly half-century experience and help you.
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Old January 22, 2011, 05:24 AM   #11
arcticap
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Whitworth rifle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle


Pedersoli Mortimer Whitworth Rifle

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...roducts_id=992
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Old January 22, 2011, 08:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
My CVA has a 1/48 barrel. Am I pretty much limited to round ball ammunition.
No it will shoot lead conicals just fine.
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