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Old August 5, 2013, 06:12 PM   #101
FireForged
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Simple, taking your opponent to the ground negates a whole myriad of advantages the opponent has. His mobility and abilities to manipulate his weapon including his choices of direction of fire, vision, target, selection, etc. are immediately and significantly reduced once you take him/her to the ground. The opponent is left trying to defend his gun more so than trying to continue shooting people. An opponent on the ground can be more controlled than an opponent that is on his/her feet.

sure... and striking him with your fists and elbows can do the same thing. To use a tackle as a method of force pales in comparison to hard strikes. If you tackle someone, you will most certainly have to follow up with something to take them out of the fight. This while you have handicapped yourself being on the ground with them. People can do what they want but if I am forced to fight some nut with a gun, I am going full tilt boogie- right out of the gate and try and take him out of the fight quickly and with the first few blows (if I am lucky). I am not going to waste time trying to grapple on the ground.
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Old August 5, 2013, 06:31 PM   #102
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sure... and striking him with your fists and elbows can do the same thing
It can do the same thing, but usually will NOT do the same thing. You are not likely to restrict mobility or directions of fire unless you are extremely lucky or skilled and can deliver a CNS disabling blow. Most folks cannot do that.

However, feel free to start your own thread documenting fists and elbows to stop active shooters. I would not be surprised if you find several. It would be interesting to see what examples you derive and can share with us. No doubt it will be informative.
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Old August 5, 2013, 06:44 PM   #103
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The whole point is to win. Knocking him down will do nothing past a few seconds if you don't win. You already know that there is no way you will take him out of the fight with a tackle. A tackle is probably the most passive form of physical force there is. You will have to do something more once you have him down. On the other hand, you just might take him out of the fight with a hard strike if you land it properly. How is a badguy going to "select targets" or "orient his weapon" with me knocking the stew out of him?
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Old August 5, 2013, 08:59 PM   #104
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A bad guy with a gun, standing upright, is still a bad guy with a gun, lying down. Focus on the threat. Kick him in the groin or break his knee to disable HIM but then neutralize the threat.

Guns don't kill people. And in this scenario, people don't kill people. People with guns kill people. Unless that "people" is really, really severely disabled, he's still a bad guy with a gun. Even with OC or mace in his face, or a cold meat pie to the jaw or a kick to the manley bits, and especially with a simple football tackle, he's still got a gun and he's now amped up on adrenaline. And YOU are the object of his sudden pain and rage.

Disable the shooter-gun component.


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Old August 5, 2013, 09:14 PM   #105
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How is a badguy going to "select targets" or "orient his weapon" with me knocking the stew out of him?
I admire the bravado, I really do.

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A bad guy with a gun, standing upright, is still a bad guy with a gun, lying down.
Yep and with a tremendous restricted range of motion and hence is easier to deal with.

I appreciate y'all's ideas especially the bravado and acknowledge that there is more than one way to deal with such a threat. Please do start another thread and document these other pugilistic and kung fu cases of stopping active shooters. Such examples are very educational, much more so than bravado theory.
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Old August 5, 2013, 09:38 PM   #106
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Here is a mass shooting just stopped by taking the gunman to the ground.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...vania/2621711/

Quote:
Inside, the executive director of the West End Open Space Commission, Bernie Kozen, was tending to one wounded man. Kozen then "bear-hugged" the gunman, took him down and shot the suspect with his own gun, Reber reported.
Yep, an armed gunman on the ground is still an armed gunman, but Kozen focused on the threat, controlling it on the ground and shot the threat with his own pistol.
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Old August 5, 2013, 09:43 PM   #107
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Yep, an armed gunman on the ground is still an armed gunman, but Kozen focused on the threat, controlling it on the ground and shot the threat with his own pistol.
That is exactly my point. Recalling the news footage from Bobby Kennedy shot -
"Grab the gun, break his thumb if you have to but grab the gun".


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Old August 6, 2013, 08:07 AM   #108
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You know, one of the reasons the old Abbott and Costello routines were so funny was because of the reflex most people have when watching them, wanting to say something like, "Uhhhh, you guys, why don't you back up and start over? Because you are not listening to each other."

Keep your goal in mind. Do what you need to do. If you have to do something, do it with all your heart.

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Old August 6, 2013, 08:15 AM   #109
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AFTER Rockne Newell was downed, then he was disarmed. There is just so much LESS a downed person can do than an ambulatory person.

No mention of the gunman's fingers being broken, just shot in the leg.

This link has statements particular to Newell being tackled...
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/06/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2
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Old August 6, 2013, 11:50 AM   #110
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I am not sure why people treat it like either/or, when in my opinion it's both.

Disarms seem to work better when the defender attacks the wielder, while simultaneously deflecting and controlling the weapon.

An unbalanced opponent is exponentially easier to manipulate, as any force he applies will serve to unbalance him further. This is true for very strong bad guys, possibly more so than for weaker ones.

Unbalancing is achieved through a combination of change in relative positions and centers of gravity, and through threats or strikes to areas that achieve a reaction - eyes, throat, floating ribs, groin, knees, ankles - whatever is easiest to treaten or strike in the instance.

Throwing a person who is set and balanced is hard. Throwing that same person in the direction to which they are already lunging (tracking a moving target) or flinching (avoiding or reacting to a strike) is much easier.
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Old August 6, 2013, 06:54 PM   #111
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Because we differ on the first strike option which [to me] is critical. SgtLumpy knows what I am talking about and he summed it up better than me. The whole flying tackle thing is stuff of television, not physical combat.
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Old August 6, 2013, 09:59 PM   #112
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We differ, but not the way you suggest.

Where we differ is that you seem to think your striking skills will likely result in an instant stop. I have very rarely seen any fight ended with a single strike or combination.

So, IMO your strategy is generally likely to fail.

I am not advocating some magical flying tackle; I am not opposed to strikes. But I do think emphasizing striking is a good way to increase the odds that the assailant will still be able to use his weapon. And I think the best strategy is a combined one.
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Old August 7, 2013, 10:47 AM   #113
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All I am saying is that if a lives are on the line, your first attack must mean business and afford you the best chance at winning. A tackle is a very passive use of force and nothing that I can qualify as a real attack (in a of itself). If its not an attack, it has no place in being a fist strike on a armed badguy. Its just my opinion.
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Old August 7, 2013, 11:01 AM   #114
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What I am saying is rather than making assumptions, it mght be a good idea to get some training in weapon disarms. I have been practicing them pretty regularly, for years, training with cops, corrections officers, and MPs, and in my experience (on the mat) it takes simultaneous movement off the X, attack, and deflection to give the best odds.
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Old August 7, 2013, 11:20 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by FireForged
...first attack must mean business and afford you the best chance at winning. A tackle is a very passive use of force...
I'm fairly certain that "tackling" the shooter is not intended to be like the NFL. You don't roll your shoulder in, wallop him, bounce back up and spike the ball.

A little common sense in determining the next action would go a long way. One would reasonably assume that fists and other options would immediately be employed, depending on the specifics. In fact, one would not reasonably assume anything else.
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Old August 7, 2013, 03:47 PM   #116
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The young man who attempted to tackle Cho at VT in what was described in some reports as a classic football position was shot repeatedly.

The exact whatever is based on being close. If you are close - then you can apply your preferred DragonBall Z, Kung-fu moves of death. Or just pound the person in the noggin repeatedly.
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Old August 7, 2013, 04:27 PM   #117
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And Jacob Ryker was shot too. Of course, he -- and the other six unarmed teenagers who helped him subdue the attacker -- would have been dead if they hadn't acted. Along with at least a few more of the 300 or so other students in the room.

Plus, this entire thread is suffering from a lack of facts. This link might help: http://www.hardtactics.com/Blog/?p=17

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Old August 8, 2013, 11:01 AM   #118
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What I am saying is rather than making assumptions, it mght be a good idea to get some training in weapon disarms. I have been practicing them pretty regularly, for years, training with cops, corrections officers, and MPs, and in my experience (on the mat) it takes simultaneous movement off the X, attack, and deflection to give the best odds.
I have had the training and used those techniques during a previous occupation I held for more than 13 years.
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Old August 8, 2013, 12:26 PM   #119
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Then you must be one hell of a striker, because I have met few who could strike their way out of getting shot, stabbed, or slashed using strikes alone.
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Old August 8, 2013, 12:36 PM   #120
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Who is the better Bruce Lee is not on topic.

Have we exhausted the basic points which are if you are close to the person, physical combat and swarming him or her may work - note if you are in front, you can get shot. If the person choses to engage a crowd at a distance, better to have a firearm.

Anything else?
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Old August 8, 2013, 01:13 PM   #121
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Wow...Pax, that took me a while to read most of that. Takes ones mind into a dark gloomy place. Sad to read all of those...

Bad guys always have the drop on the good guys. They prepare for the bad deed they're doing with the most serious intention of harm to others resulting in death.

All we can do is prepare for the worst the best we can.

In the book "Force Decisions" by Rory Miller he states that even the most highly decorated veteran can tense up and freeze at a time where he/she needs to act to stay alive or save a life. Gives examples of one way and the other. Meaning an average Joe going above and beyond and a highly decorated officer freezing and vice versa.

So all this training is amazing and great. The more you have the better. However one never really knows what he/she will do when they cross that bridge until they get there.
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Old August 8, 2013, 05:43 PM   #122
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I'm not a martial artist, nor a boxer, nor a wrestler. In two different police academies I've taken very short courses in disarming others. Twice in my career I've taken a gun away and once taken a knife away from a subject. I've never been taught to tackle an adversary. I suppose there are places/courses that do teach to tackle someone down and then go for the weapon. But in my limited experience and training it's been to focus on gaining control of the weapon in their hand, get it pointed in a safe direction, twist it out of their grip or apply a sharp blow to the forearm to cause them to release it and THEN immediately gain space between me and the adversary.

Again, there may be other ways to teach disarming. I personally don't see myself at any advantage having thrown my body weight at an adversary and ending up on the ground. I feel I'd be at more of a disadvantage on the ground with a bad guy than if I were standing and thereby more mobile.


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Old August 8, 2013, 05:46 PM   #123
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Then you must be one hell of a striker, because I have met few who could strike their way out of getting shot, stabbed, or slashed using strikes alone.
I did not mean to suggest Strikes alone... My point has always been ( in this thread) and within the context of what the original poster layed out, if a person finds themselves in the middle of an active shooter event and "if" they decide to take action against the badguy.. strikes should be first if that's all you have.
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Old August 8, 2013, 05:47 PM   #124
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My point has always been that if you are unarmed vs an armed badguy- strikes should be first.
Controlling the WEAPON should be first.

Focus on the threat.


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Old August 8, 2013, 05:51 PM   #125
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Only if that weapon is being pointed at me.. if not, I would stand a better chance at removing the weapon following a hard attack. If I just run up behind someone and grab at their weapon while they still have 100% of their faculties, my odds are less. But yes, I agree if a person in close proximity has a weapon on you... that is the fist priority ( to control it ). I took this thread to suggest that what is being discussed is attacking a badguy who may be unaware of you but is actively attacking others. I guess we can simply agree to disagree. We have all made out points and I respect that but the debate is no longer fruitful. As I said in the very beginning, I would likely go the other way if escape was available which to me is the preferable option.
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