CCW Class

4runnerman · January 11, 2011, 10:37 AM

Hi All.Just compleated mt CCW class and had a few questions to ask.
I don't pretend to know the law ,but i did get a very thick book to start reading. Question is

Instructor, Marine Sniper,(retired),trained snipers and special forces for 8 years,Cal police dept 22 years, and now teaches CCW and hand to hand combat classes,Just some back ground on him. Now question.

He made the statement that under any circumstance(sp) DO NOT use your reloads for self defence and DO NOT use rounds that are advertised as self defense rounds from store. His reasons were That the prosecuter will use this info against you in court in a heart beat. He (prosecuter) will try to convince jury that you baught this round and shot this guy with the intent of killing him,not to disable him,not to get a chance to get away ,but for the sole purpose of Killing. He recommended just your run of the mill hollow point on the shelf bullet. He aslo stated that if it ever happens and you end up in court,that you better know every nut,bolt and screw on your pistol or gun and what they are called also because he will ask you and try to establish that you know nothing of guns

Am i being a worry wart or is this all possable?.

CowTowner · January 11, 2011, 11:39 AM

4runnerman, the search feature is an awesome friend here.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/sear...archid=4954041

This topic has been around the planet and then some.
Happy Reading!

4runnerman · January 11, 2011, 11:50 AM

Cow Towner--Not found,but thanks for trying.

**Brian Pfleuger** · January 11, 2011, 11:59 AM

Here are some links to where it has been discussed before....

Pay special attention to the opinions of Mas Ayoob, being that he is an actual court recognized expert with DIRECT experience on this subject...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388901

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261157

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283823

http://TheFiringLine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365747

4runnerman · January 11, 2011, 12:00 PM

Thanks Peet

steve54 · January 16, 2011, 08:58 PM

I think any information that gets you thinking in any way that will protect you now or in the future is of value
If I were asked why I bought GDHP I would say that it's effect is to better stop an attacker than Practice ammo
Did I intend to kill the person - 'No" I just shot him to stop him, which I did.

csmsss · January 16, 2011, 09:06 PM

I will say this. Read through those threads linked above. Consider the issues raised carefully. If after that, you really and truly believe that your best option for self defense is your own handloaded ammunition, by all means use that. I am not so sanguine about my own handloads, even though I live in a gun-friendly county and state where these kinds of issues would likely never come up. I just don't believe that my own handloads are superior to the commercially available self defense ammunition, so I use the commercial stuff.

In any case, it's good simply to be thinking about the question and how it relates to your own situation. The most you can do is gather as much relevant information as possible, then make the best decision you can.

jimbob86 · January 16, 2011, 09:13 PM

Use what you think is best to stop a threat right now: If it were me, I'd use what worked best in my gun.

The guy I took my class from was from MN- Paul Horvick (shootingsafely.com), and advocated susing whatever the local PD used, if it functioned reliably in your gun.

csmsss · January 16, 2011, 09:17 PM

Quote:

The guy I took my class from was from MN- Paul Horvick (shootingsafely.com), and advocated susing whatever the local PD used, if it functioned reliably in your gun.

I think that's pretty good advice, in general. Folks in NJ, however, might get thrown in the pokey, however, since hollowpoint ammunition is illegal for public use (though I believe LEO's are exempt and are allowed to use it - can someone from NJ correct me if I'm wrong?).

**Frank Ettin** · January 17, 2011, 01:05 AM

[1] The legal issues regarding the use of handloads for self defense have been discussed extensively here. See (in addition to those links provided by Peet):

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423771

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391656

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394682

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397127

[2] Just some high points --

Yes, a good shoot is a good shoot. But you won't be deciding if it was a good shoot. Other folks will. And if you're on trial, someone who matters didn't think it was a good shoot. Now it's not a good shoot unless the jury says so.
If you've been involved in a shooting in which you claim self defense and if, for some reason, gunshot residue (GSR) test results will be important to your defense, GSR test results will not be admissible into evidence if you used handloads. It won't matter how good your records may be. They are suspect, because they are yours. You will not be able to establish the necessary foundation for admission of GSR test results of your handloads because you will not be able to satisfactorily establish that the handloads tested were the same as the rounds fired in the incident.
It will be highly unlikely that any members of your jury will have any knowledge of or interest in guns or shooting. Your reasons for using handloads will strike them as too "inside baseball", and they will probably not be receptive to them.
If you're on trial in a shooting in which you're claiming self defense, you probably have a number of problems. Handloads can become one more thing that will need to be explained, one more "wild card." As a general rule in court, the less you have to explain, the better off you'll be. You won't have to explain handloads if you didn't use them and used factory ammunition instead.
There aren't cases on the issue because it's most likely that there are very few self defense incidents in which handloads have been used.

[3] All these points are discussed in greater detail and at greater length in the threads I've linked to.

[4] I practiced law for over 30 years before retiring a few years ago. I will not use handloads for self defense applications. I use quality commercial JHP ammunition similar to that used by major law enforcement agencies. My reasons are more fully discussed in the threads I've linked to.

silvercorvette · January 17, 2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Here are some links to where it has been discussed before....

Pay special attention to the opinions of Mas Ayoob, being that he is an actual court recognized expert with DIRECT experience on this subject...

I always said it was poppy cock and for years argued that if the shoot was good the type of ammo did matter.

A few years back on another forum Mas Ayoob got involved in a thread discussing reloads for carry. It takes a lot to convince me and there some things that I still question but the bottom line is I now carry factory ammo. I still think that reloads should not matter but it is a matter of not wanting to make my lawyers job more difficult. Lawyers charge you for billable hours and if he has to spend his time defending what ammo you used it is going to run up your bill.

It should not matter but if you have to go to court the ammo issue will just muck up the issue of whether it was a legal shoot

January 11, 2011, 10:37 AM	#1
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnsota Posts: 1,840	CCW Class Hi All.Just compleated mt CCW class and had a few questions to ask. I don't pretend to know the law ,but i did get a very thick book to start reading. Question is Instructor, Marine Sniper,(retired),trained snipers and special forces for 8 years,Cal police dept 22 years, and now teaches CCW and hand to hand combat classes,Just some back ground on him. Now question. He made the statement that under any circumstance(sp) DO NOT use your reloads for self defence and DO NOT use rounds that are advertised as self defense rounds from store. His reasons were That the prosecuter will use this info against you in court in a heart beat. He (prosecuter) will try to convince jury that you baught this round and shot this guy with the intent of killing him,not to disable him,not to get a chance to get away ,but for the sole purpose of Killing. He recommended just your run of the mill hollow point on the shelf bullet. He aslo stated that if it ever happens and you end up in court,that you better know every nut,bolt and screw on your pistol or gun and what they are called also because he will ask you and try to establish that you know nothing of guns Am i being a worry wart or is this all possable?. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

January 11, 2011, 11:39 AM	#2
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 976	4runnerman, the search feature is an awesome friend here. http://thefiringline.com/forums/sear...archid=4954041 This topic has been around the planet and then some. Happy Reading! __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearm Safety and Basic Pistol Instructor "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

January 11, 2011, 11:50 AM	#3
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnsota Posts: 1,840	Cow Towner--Not found,but thanks for trying. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

January 11, 2011, 11:59 AM	#4
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,457	Here are some links to where it has been discussed before.... Pay special attention to the opinions of Mas Ayoob, being that he is an actual court recognized expert with DIRECT experience on this subject... http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388901 http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261157 http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283823 http://TheFiringLine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365747 __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

January 11, 2011, 12:00 PM	#5
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnsota Posts: 1,840	Thanks Peet __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

January 16, 2011, 08:58 PM	#6
steve54 Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 29	I think any information that gets you thinking in any way that will protect you now or in the future is of value If I were asked why I bought GDHP I would say that it's effect is to better stop an attacker than Practice ammo Did I intend to kill the person - 'No" I just shot him to stop him, which I did.

January 16, 2011, 09:06 PM	#7
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 2,292	I will say this. Read through those threads linked above. Consider the issues raised carefully. If after that, you really and truly believe that your best option for self defense is your own handloaded ammunition, by all means use that. I am not so sanguine about my own handloads, even though I live in a gun-friendly county and state where these kinds of issues would likely never come up. I just don't believe that my own handloads are superior to the commercially available self defense ammunition, so I use the commercial stuff. In any case, it's good simply to be thinking about the question and how it relates to your own situation. The most you can do is gather as much relevant information as possible, then make the best decision you can.

January 16, 2011, 09:13 PM	#8
jimbob86 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 5,245	Use what you think is best to stop a threat right now: If it were me, I'd use what worked best in my gun. The guy I took my class from was from MN- Paul Horvick (shootingsafely.com), and advocated susing whatever the local PD used, if it functioned reliably in your gun. __________________ TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T." http://nefirearm.com/

January 17, 2011, 01:05 AM	#10
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 4,963	[1] The legal issues regarding the use of handloads for self defense have been discussed extensively here. See (in addition to those links provided by Peet): http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423771 http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391656 http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394682 http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397127 [2] Just some high points -- Yes, a good shoot is a good shoot. But you won't be deciding if it was a good shoot. Other folks will. And if you're on trial, someone who matters didn't think it was a good shoot. Now it's not a good shoot unless the jury says so. If you've been involved in a shooting in which you claim self defense and if, for some reason, gunshot residue (GSR) test results will be important to your defense, GSR test results will not be admissible into evidence if you used handloads. It won't matter how good your records may be. They are suspect, because they are yours. You will not be able to establish the necessary foundation for admission of GSR test results of your handloads because you will not be able to satisfactorily establish that the handloads tested were the same as the rounds fired in the incident. It will be highly unlikely that any members of your jury will have any knowledge of or interest in guns or shooting. Your reasons for using handloads will strike them as too "inside baseball", and they will probably not be receptive to them. If you're on trial in a shooting in which you're claiming self defense, you probably have a number of problems. Handloads can become one more thing that will need to be explained, one more "wild card." As a general rule in court, the less you have to explain, the better off you'll be. You won't have to explain handloads if you didn't use them and used factory ammunition instead. There aren't cases on the issue because it's most likely that there are very few self defense incidents in which handloads have been used. [3] All these points are discussed in greater detail and at greater length in the threads I've linked to. [4] I practiced law for over 30 years before retiring a few years ago. I will not use handloads for self defense applications. I use quality commercial JHP ammunition similar to that used by major law enforcement agencies. My reasons are more fully discussed in the threads I've linked to.