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Old January 10, 2011, 08:46 AM   #1
eaglesnester
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lets say you are CCW in a business with no carry allowed

What would be the ramifications if you were CCW, trained and papered and entered a business with a no carry sign. During the course of your business a armed individual entered and started shooting and killing people. You draw your weapon and put an end to it. What happens now?

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Old January 10, 2011, 09:16 AM   #2
atlctyslkr
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Depends on the state. In most places if you refuse to comply with a property owner's instructions and refuse to leave you can be charged with tresspassing and disorderly conduct. The store owner can't prosecute you, only the DA can.
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Old January 10, 2011, 09:36 AM   #3
LordTio3
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Depends on the state. In most places if you refuse to comply with a property owner's instructions and refuse to leave you can be charged with tresspassing and disorderly conduct. The store owner can't prosecute you, only the DA can.
I'll have to disagree with this.

In the example provided, he is in a place of Business with no carry allowed. Businesses are privately owned and privately regulated. If you are caught carrying a weapon into a place that does not allow it, and you are not brandishing, or causing a criminal disturbance of the peace, the worst thing that could happen is that they ask you to leave. Now if you refuse to leave, then you are trespassing. However, seeings how most of us good citizens follow the posted rules and try to fight them in other ways (i.e. not going into or contributing to those businesses or massive letter-writing), this tends to be a non issue.

If you had to draw and fire upon a criminal in a privately-owned business where they don't allow carry (I am not a lawyer) it is my understanding that you'll be completely justified in your actions; provided of course that your reasons for engaging the threat were lawful (i.e. in accordance with regulations regarding use of deadly force). When asked why you were carrying your weapon despite the posted sign, a simple response would be, "I didn't see that sign. I appologize. If you'd like me to leave, I'll wait for the police outside... oh, and you're welcome for saving your life. In retrospect, you might want to rethink that regulation, considering it didn't seem to hamper the well-armed criminal at all, and would have only served to disarm me; ensuring that he'd probably still be on his feet killing people."

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Old January 10, 2011, 11:12 AM   #4
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Many states (most?) can suspend/rescind your CHL if you are found to be carrying in a place where you are not permitted to carry. Additionally, if you are involved in a shooting and were carrying in a location where you weren't supposed to be carrying, that will certainly be raised to your detriment should litigation ensue (which almost certainly will happen).
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Old January 10, 2011, 11:22 AM   #5
Glenn E. Meyer
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Folks should reference their local laws as to the penalty without generalizations. One can see a gun charge sticking to you, if the law allows and the jury goes for it.

Goetz is tangential but he was let go on the shooting but convicted on the gun charge. Civily he was toasted. Not really the same but close but NYC.

I'd opine that if goes badly, - you shoot grandma - you are in a world of hurt civily.
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Old January 10, 2011, 11:27 AM   #6
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Hey, if grandma is drawing a bead on me, she is toast!
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Old January 10, 2011, 11:36 AM   #7
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Also, I consider it an act of discourtesy to the proprietor and fellow customers to carry a firearm into a place where the proprietor has clearly indicated that patrons with guns are not welcome. It's more than a question of just being able to "get away" with a simple trespass charge, it's just common courtesy. If the store owner or manager doesn't want me with my firearm in that establishment, I don't go inside with it. I am saddened to see that others obviously feel they can take their firearms wherever the hell they want, regardless of whether they are welcome there or not. I think that reflects poorly on all of us.
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Old January 10, 2011, 11:41 AM   #8
HotShot.444
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Theory only.

Describe the "prohibited" sign that is on the door. Is there any other public entrance-door without said sign? It means a whole lot. And remember that bona fide heroes are almost uniformly admired, and you only need one juror on your side, if it comes to that. HS.444
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Old January 10, 2011, 12:22 PM   #9
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Sign placement

Found myself in an unintended partial bit of this scenario (sans shooter).

Went to have lunch while on a road trip. Won't say where, but carry in restaurants is legal there.

Did not see any sign on entry to the building.

Had lunch with the significant other.

On the way out, saw a sign. The way it was positioned, when I had opened the entrance door, the sign was behind the door. It could only be seen after the door was closed - and even then, it was away from the side one would turn toward, in order to access the dining area.

It was perfectly placed to be seen upon exiting the building...

Wonder if that sign's positioning would cut it, in those states that give signs the force of law. I was kind of annoyed, but didn't mention it to the manager, as I didn't want to tell him I'd busted his rule, even if unintentionally.
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Old January 10, 2011, 12:27 PM   #10
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Texas has a state law covering "no gun" signs.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/adminis...ignposting.htm

Even though Texas spells out how the signage is to read and be posted, I see examples all the time that goes counter to what the state requires. However, to me, the store's intend is clear, they don't want want gun owner's carrying a gun into their business. So I either go else where or I leave my carry gun in the truck. I think this falls under what Grandma meant by "two wrongs don't make a right".
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Old January 10, 2011, 12:40 PM   #11
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SVO, I agree with you, but...

... in the case I am describing, my issue wasn't with whether I should have been able to IGNORE the sign because it wasn't in accordance with spec.

My issue was what, if any, ramifications there would be when a sign is placed so that a person can very easily fail to see it in the first place. This sign was akin to a STOP sign, placed behind an inadequately pruned tree. IE, it was placed in such a way that the odds were high a person would never see it.

I didn't see it until we left. Neither did my lady. If either of us had, we'd have gone elsewhere.

But, if something had happened while we were there, what would have been the legal ramifications, given that the sign was placed so that it could not be seen very easily when entering the building?
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Old January 10, 2011, 12:41 PM   #12
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The laws are what they are, but I think this is more of a personal decision. If your life is threatened, then you have to act to save your life or the life of your loved ones, regardless of legal ramifications.

There are 2 options here:
1. Do not to businesses that restrict concealed weapons.
2. Carry your weapon anyways and risk legal action.

If you are carrying in a place that has a no weapons sign posted, just make sure it is well concealed. Do not get involved if there is a robbery going down unless the bad guys start shooting and/or your life is at risk. You are not their security guard and you should not act as such, especially since the business has a no weapons sign. Besides, I'm sure the sign will prevent criminals from bringing guns into that business...
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Old January 10, 2011, 12:51 PM   #13
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If ordered off the property in florida, you may face misdemeanor trespass charges... if you are armed with a firearm, you up the ante to FELONY ARMED TRESPASS...

Brent
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Old January 10, 2011, 12:55 PM   #14
stephen426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogdogs
If ordered off the property in florida, you may face misdemeanor trespass charges... if you are armed with a firearm, you up the ante to FELONY ARMED TRESPASS...
Like I said Brent, keep your gun concealed and no one will even know you have it. Either that or leave the gun in the car or at home, or choose another place of business. If you get made, apologize for not noticing the sign, pay your bill, and leave. It should rarely come down to being ordered off the property unless you are openly carrying or poorly concealing your weapon. Since open carry is not an option in Florida, then it poorly concealing your gun could also become brandishing.
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Old January 10, 2011, 01:15 PM   #15
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Like I said Brent, keep your gun concealed any no one will even know you have it. Either that or leave the gun in the car or at home, or choose another place of business. If you get made, apologize for not noticing the sign, pay your bill, and leave. It should rarely come down to being ordered off the property unless you are openly carrying or poorly concealing your weapon. Since open carry is not an option in Florida, then it poorly concealing your gun could also become brandishing.
I consider this the height of arrogance and rudeness. You KNOW you are not welcome in an establishment with your firearm, yet choose to enter it anyway just because you think you can get away with it. I can tell you that you would never be welcome in my home.
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Old January 10, 2011, 01:23 PM   #16
egor20
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It's a very simple equation for me, if they don't want me carrying (their decision) then they don't want my money (my decision).

EDIT: One caveat though, I don't mind not carrying when I go to the Commissary or PX, some price's you just can't miss. (pun intended)
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Old January 10, 2011, 01:36 PM   #17
1911rocks
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Firearms on premises

It's like banning people with no shirts. A violation would be trespass, if you refuse to leave. I will absolutely boycott a business with a firearms ban. However, here in Central IN there's not a lot of places that prohibit CCP/CCL carry.
But, this whole discussion begs for a new Sticky, "Business' that have a no carry policy. I'm a believer in market force, we're still a nation of capitalists.....for now anyway.
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Old January 10, 2011, 01:38 PM   #18
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Hey, I agree entirely with not patronizing businesses that do not welcome my presence (with my carry piece). I just don't believe my desire to carry CCW trumps their property rights.
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Old January 10, 2011, 03:55 PM   #19
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Don't argue for breaking the law here by keeping it concealed. Cease.

Second, CSMiss - personally, I think self-defense trumps property rights as the owner decided to be open to the public. Once, you do that - my opinion is that it is an easement of your property rights. Many differ on this.
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Old January 10, 2011, 04:05 PM   #20
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Glenn, I'm one that differs with you on this. The founders revered property rights above all others. It is a relatively novel legal assertion that property rights were subordinate to non-enumerated rights.
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Old January 10, 2011, 06:06 PM   #21
Glenn E. Meyer
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Getting rid of the King was a novel idea at one time. The FF came up with a new idea for its time. I think in this matter there is a conflict of rights and I go for the SD rights when you invite the public to your business. I would pass appropriate laws and amend the Constitution to reflect that if need be. The Constitution had an amendment process to take care of such later good ideas - not banning alcohol though.
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Old January 10, 2011, 06:27 PM   #22
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Glenn, one question - where in the Constitution, Federalist Papers, or any other original source does it distinguish between personal and commercial property? Near as I can tell, it doesn't. That's the crux of my argument - that this distinction is a modernist invention that the Founders wouldn't recognize or acknowledge.
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Old January 10, 2011, 06:47 PM   #23
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I wont go into a long drawn out 2nd amendment rant,you get labeled a hero and asked not to come back.
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Old January 10, 2011, 07:05 PM   #24
Glenn E. Meyer
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I'm sorry - as I said before, it might be a modernist invention in your terms. That is not a problem to me. Our views of rights have expanded since the FF walked the Earth.

Commercial property is not immune to changing expansion of rights. It used to be OK for a commercial enterprise to discriminate based on race and religion. It's not anymore. Fine with me.

If the argument is that a view of rights doesn't evolve, I don't agree with that. As our views of rights are part of the evolving social contract, the limits of the past made need to change.

One can disagree. I am not one for just accepting authority as giving us immutable principles. Rights can be expanded as our social conscience changes. Instantiating more SD rights is an area where I want that to happen.

But the day is over for me. Check in tomorrow for this old debate.
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Old January 10, 2011, 07:22 PM   #25
alan
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Personally speaking, I would not argue with the business owner, for as a practical matter, since I would not patronize such a business, the opportunity or need for "discussion" would not arise.

The proprietor can presumably post their business, that's their choice, just as I can exercise my choice concerning where I will, or won't, spend my money.
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