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Old December 31, 2010, 10:46 PM   #1
youngunz4life
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heavy grain kinda guy

not sure if this thread is gonna go anywhere, but I might need help. In other words, I have some knowledge but think maybe I am overdoing it. At any rate here goes and hopefully you guys(and gals) can set me straight or relieve my 'worry':

I am a heavy grain kinda guy. thats to say I love the heavy grain stuff. I use the 300gr .44 ammo for my rifle, I use the 180gr for my revolver, and I also use the 158gr for my other revolver(sometimes I have trouble finding the correct 180gr). I do also have my golden sabres 125gr which was taught(to me anyways) as being the Godfather ammo. I dont even know if this is true. all my ammo are hollowpoints. even my shotgun is 3" with the 15 pellets. all my handguns are .357

I have read so many threads about over penetration is a myth but then I know I am in the minority with the ammo I use(I think). So my question is:

is heavy grain ammo ok? lets say thats all you have and you need to use it in some scenario- is that ammo going thru the BG or is it tearin his a%& up? I ask because I honestly am not the number type and need the advice and other opinions about the ammo is fine too. I have always been the kinda guy who goes for the heavy stuff. I Do want to stop if its in my best interest. recoil from ammo(the shotgun beforementioned as an example)doesnt bother me and I like it so that should be noted. of course, it can effect accuracy but once again: I am not the numbers type
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Old December 31, 2010, 11:43 PM   #2
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My take on the concensus of opinions is to stay completely, absolutely, unashamedly far, far away from hand loads for your carry ammo.

Shoot all the home grown stuff you want at the range, . . . but put that high dollar "store bought" ammo in your cylinder or mag for the HD / SD scenarios.

The reasoning / justification angle is that if you have to use your weapon and there is any question at all of your innocense / motive, . . . the DA will drag any and everything he can find to fry your bacon with.

This was shown at Mr. Fish(???)'s trial a couple of years back when he used a 10mm with HP ammo to defend himself. The DA sold him down the river because he used an over powerful handgun with "killer" bullets.

Use something similar to your local PD (if it is legal for you) and make sure you don't roll em yourself.

May God bless,
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Old January 1, 2011, 12:25 AM   #3
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I am in the minority on both issues - I want complete penetration - i.e. two holes- one in and one out- and in my opinion there is no problem shooting your own hand loaded ammunition. There is no concealed carry here in California and where I live in the middle of no-where I have unlimited lines of fire. I really don't want to argue either of these points it is just my opinion. I am an attorney and have studied the law and case law and that is my opinion. I think heavy for caliber bullets are great for self-defense especially where you want complete penetration and there no other innocent people around.
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Old January 1, 2011, 12:32 AM   #4
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thanx for the feedback guyz

I should clarify that I do not handload my ammo, but its interesting to add it to the discussion. I buy all my ammo, but thats not to say I won't load my own down the road. I also only buy 357 ammo instead of 38, but I think its because of my 'heavy grain' tendencies.
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Old January 1, 2011, 12:59 AM   #5
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Young, I was reading a couple of articles recently by reputable experts on the topic and both agreed that, for handguns, one should shoot on the heavy end of the spectrum. Not necessarily the heaviest but not necessarily not. So you seem to be in excellent company.

BTW, I've never before seen anyone recommend against using hand loads for self defense rounds. I'm not a hand loader, but if I were I'd have sufficient quality control to trust my life to them, whether its for a reliable round in a once-in-a-lifetime self defense scenario, or for weekly range use.
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Old January 1, 2011, 05:38 AM   #6
Eagle0711
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Heavy For Caliber Bullets

I feel more confident with the heavy for caliber because penetration is needed to get deep enough to get to vital areas. The result is a greater chance of stopping the BG.

I recall a few years back in the revolver days for police, and in 38 Special the 95 gr. Silver Tip HP was the rage. You know, more velocity and energy. Looked good on paper. When used in real shootings the failure to stop rate was very high because of limitted penetration. The bullet didn't get deep enough to destroy things that are vital to life.

Heavier bullets penetrate deeper, break bones, and destroy more tissue.
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Old January 1, 2011, 03:16 PM   #7
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I'm glad someone brought that topic up. I've been hand loading for over 25 years and have always loaded a light high velocity bullet for everything I shoot, as you said, even my shotgun. Recently I was shoppting for my usual 110 gr. or 125 gr. XTPHP to load for my .357 mag. and all that was on the shelf was 158 gr. Gold Dot. I bought the 158s and loaded them expecting a massive amount of recoil and was really surprised to find that even at 1300 fps from my snub S&W recoil was really mild. I didn't do any penetration testing, but I would bet that its going to be impressive. You mentioned the Golden Saber which has always been a bulet of interst to me. Have you chronographed it or done any penetration testing with it?
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Old January 1, 2011, 04:46 PM   #8
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I think one of the big concerns in as hooting situation is "Will I survive to tell the tale"everyone will pick apart anything you say and do after the fact. But if you do have to shoot then make sure your story is the one being heard not the "Shootie" myself I use a heavy bullet I do believe the police do the same thing. In a shooting situation the last thing you want is for the felon to get back up. If you have to shoot make sure you do it right the first time. I carry a 1911 and I use a 230 grain bullet, Uncle Sam used that weight and I never heard of a Jap or German soldier who complain after the fact. Read what the military theory is behind the ammo they use and what the police use then make an intelligent decision and go.
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Old January 1, 2011, 06:01 PM   #9
youngunz4life
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Quote:
You mentioned the Golden Saber which has always been a bulet of interst to me. Have you chronographed it or done any penetration testing with it?
700cdl, No I haven't done iny testing on it. My mentor believes the golden saber to be one of the best HD/SD 357 ammo around. I even tried to go with the "+" ammo and he disagreed with that too. This was a long time ago.

Quote:
I think one of the big concerns in as hooting situation is "Will I survive to tell the tale"everyone will pick apart anything you say and do after the fact. But if you do have to shoot then make sure your story is the one being heard not the "Shootie" myself I use a heavy bullet I do believe the police do the same thing. In a shooting situation the last thing you want is for the felon to get back up. If you have to shoot make sure you do it right the first time. I carry a 1911 and I use a 230 grain bullet, Uncle Sam used that weight and I never heard of a Jap or German soldier who complain after the fact. Read what the military theory is behind the ammo they use and what the police use then make an intelligent decision and go.
Burrhead51, I love the heavier grain but I have actually heard some people say that the heavier grain might do less damage in a SD/HD situation(like if the bullet went clean thru as one example). Personally, I use my common sense and gut - I just like the heavier grain stuff and feel (with what knowledge I have) that the heavier grain is better. Please note I am not even sure if this is true, and the entire subject is tricky to me. I prefer the 180gr 357 ammo, and I went that route on my own after some time. If it truely is overkill, I will probably reconsider. In my mind I have just always felt it would take care of business being I buy the hollowpoints. I don't mind exit wounds, but I prefer for the bullet to mushroom inside the body if a true SD/HD situation occurs. Deflections in the body off bones work for me too - I just choose to carry the big stuff just in case.
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Old January 1, 2011, 06:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Young, I was reading a couple of articles recently by reputable experts on the topic and both agreed that, for handguns, one should shoot on the heavy end of the spectrum. Not necessarily the heaviest but not necessarily not. So you seem to be in excellent company.

BTW, I've never before seen anyone recommend against using hand loads for self defense rounds. I'm not a hand loader, but if I were I'd have sufficient quality control to trust my life to them, whether its for a reliable round in a once-in-a-lifetime self defense scenario, or for weekly range use.
Mes227, I am going to try and find some of the articles mentioned or something of the sort on the internet. If you can remember the locations or have any other info I appreciate it.
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Old January 2, 2011, 02:12 AM   #11
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Youngunz, I am pretty much with you all the way, with maybe one or two exceptions. I feed my 30-06 180 grainers, my .41 Mag 265 Veral Smith WLNFP's, My .45 Single Actions 270gr. Keiths, and 240gr. is the lightest bullet my Blackhawk revolver or my Marlin lever action .44mags. will see. I load 405gr. bullets in my guide gun, and even have some 525gr. loads from Beartooth Bullets that give me about 1800fps. out of my Guide Gun, talk about stopping power!! I agree that the .45 acp was designed aroung the 230gr. bullet and in 100 years as of 2011 its track record as a stopper is unequaled. BUT, I am in favor of the 125gr. JHP in the .357. It has been proven to be one of the best "fight stoppers" ever as far as I can determine. I am also going to try some 200gr. Hollowpoints in my Kimber 1911 for home defense, as per Allen Jones, a writer for Shooting Times magazine recommends. He is not just some hack either, He ran the Ballistic Lab for the Dallas PD for some years and was the senior editor for a couple of editions of the Speer reloading manuals. He does seem to know his beans and has been witness to the results of many, many shootings first hand, as well as having to diagnose the results. In addition to that, his opinion of what constitutes the most effective stopper for the .45 acp. makes a great deal of sense to me. A 200gr. Hollowpoint with the widest cavity going at the highest velocity you can RELIABLY get from your gun, about 950-1000fps. gives you a real big hole, good horsepower, (about 450+ ft/lbs)
and should be about as good a man stopper as you can expect from a handgun without too much overpenetration.
Anyhoo those are my thoughts on the subject. As always, YMMV.
Good Luck, Good shootin', and A HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR TO ALL OF YOU AND YOURS!!

GOD BLESS,
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Old January 2, 2011, 05:41 PM   #12
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what is the "overpenetration myth" you are talking about? It would seem that overpenetration would be a bad thing in a self defense scenario. I would think that if a bullet from your gun went through an offender and injured someone else, you could be held responsible for it.
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Old January 2, 2011, 07:26 PM   #13
Hal
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Quote:
I am a heavy grain kinda guy. thats to say I love the heavy grain stuff.
Google and read up on "sectional density".

I prefer to stick with what's considered the "standard" for each
(158 for the .357 and 240 for the .44, etc..)

If I desire to move up in bullet weight, I tend to increase the caliber instead of the actual bullet.

For instance, if I want to shoot a 200 grain, I'll use a 240 in a .44mag and adjust the velocity as required.

To each their own though. If going heavy for caliber is what you prefer, then go for it.
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Old January 2, 2011, 08:30 PM   #14
youngunz4life
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1)Hal,

Thank you, I plan on reading up on that right now(actually after this sun night football game).

2)
Quote:
what is the "overpenetration myth" you are talking about? It would seem that overpenetration would be a bad thing in a self defense scenario. I would think that if a bullet from your gun went through an offender and injured someone else, you could be held responsible for it.
smoakingun,

I was referring to debates and/or arguments I have overheard(and read on forums) from gun enthusiasts. I have heard more then one person claim overpenetration is a myth. I do not know if it is myself. I have heard others argue the same point you made like if someone shot someone in a crowd in a True SD decision and the bullet passed thru in killed a little girl as an example. I do not recall ever hearing about this - I have heard about people being shot by accident from shots meant for other targets that missed. I hope to get more insight from this thread; it is good to hear from other gun enthusiasts that prefer heavy grain ammo as well.
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Old January 5, 2011, 04:20 PM   #15
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When I saw the title to this thread I thought you ate a lot of barley!
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Old January 5, 2011, 08:35 PM   #16
youngunz4life
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When I saw the title to this thread I thought you ate a lot of barley
Lol. My buddy called me the bread monster in 9th grade. Does that count?
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Old January 5, 2011, 08:36 PM   #17
DiscoRacing
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I cast 440 grains for 500magnum...

... is that heavy grain??!!
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Old January 5, 2011, 08:38 PM   #18
youngunz4life
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yeah that'll work! I shoulda' bought that 500 when I had the chance.
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Old January 5, 2011, 08:45 PM   #19
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Nothin better than a S&W Hand Cannon..
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