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Old December 29, 2010, 05:23 PM   #1
jolasa
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New California Ammo Buying Rules

Anybody seen this letter about the new California ammo buying rules (sent to me from Cabela's).

So guess this means that you are going to have to find your handgun ammo at a local dealer - no more catalog or internet ordering of handgun ammo.

Will this affect 45-70 Sharps cartridges (rifle ammo, not handgun)?

Jon

*****************************************************

Subject:
Date:


On Oct. 11, 2009, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed Assembly Bill 962, legislation that will restrict purchases of handgun ammunition in California, and will prohibit California residents from buying handgun ammunition through catalog and Internet vendors.


AB 962 will become law statewide Feb. 1, 2011. All orders for in-stock handgun ammunition shipped to customers in California must be placed by Jan. 21, 2011, at 9 p.m. CST, and must be delivered by Jan. 31, 2011, to conform with the new regulations contained in AB 962.


In addition to banning catalog and Internet sales of handgun ammunition, AB 962 will:
• Prohibit the retail sale, the offer for sale, or the display of handgun ammunition in a manner that allows it to be accessible without assistance of an employee.
• Require that the delivery or transfer of ownership of handgun ammunition occur in a face-to-face transaction, with the deliverer or tranferor being provided bona fide evidence of identity of the purchaser or other transferee.


That evidence of identity, which must be legibly recorded at the time of delivery, includes:
• The right thumbprint of the purchaser or transferee.
• The brand, type and amount of ammunition sold or otherwise transferred.
• the purchaser's or transferee's full residential address and telephone number.
• The purchaser's or transferee's date of birth.


We appreciate the support of our many valuable California shooting-sports customers over the years, and regret that we will no longer be able to provide them with handgun ammunition through catalog or Internet sales after Jan. 21, 2011.
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Old December 29, 2010, 09:04 PM   #2
WANT A LCR 22LR
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I see it says " All orders for in-stock handgun ammunition shipped to customers in California must be placed by Jan. 21, 2011 " Does this mean non stock can still be bought online?

What about multi use ammo like 22 , 38 , 357 , 410 shot? Is there a list of ammo by caliber? I guess it's time to start manufacturing 9MM , 45 ACP , 45 GAP or 40 SW long guns.

I can just see the Terminator stopping by the local gun store wanting to order some ammo, being refused then replying " I'll be back " ( then crashing his Chevy Nova through the front doors. .. )
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Old December 29, 2010, 09:36 PM   #3
R1145
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Seriously, it's a big problem because in L.A. it's hard to find premium ammo. The relatively few establishments seldom have just what I'm looking for. Does anyone know of a retail establishment that will special order by the box?

Last edited by JohnKSa; December 29, 2010 at 10:04 PM. Reason: Removed off-topic remarks.
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Old December 29, 2010, 09:43 PM   #4
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"Want" raises a good point and one county Sheriff has already sued based exactly on that ambiguity; the law uses language something like "primarily used for handguns". But there's absolutely no data or any other objective way to determine "primary use" for dual-use calibers, which are becoming more common every year. In fact, this law (especially if the court strikes down the dual-use provision) will likely promote the development of rifles using handgun calibers, if for no other reason than to promote internet sales of ammo (which perhaps is good for us gun enthusiasts not dealing with stupid California ammo rules). It will also almost certainly increase hand-loading!

This law will increase State and local government costs for enforcement, it will discourage commerce and related employment, it will discourage the purchase of ammunition for LEGAL purposes, and will not likely have even the slightest impact on illegal uses. It will, unfortunately, also increase the demand on ammo in boarder areas like where I live!

Last edited by JohnKSa; December 29, 2010 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Removed Off Topic Remarks.
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Old December 29, 2010, 09:49 PM   #5
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Reading through that post, I thought California was adding that whole serial numbering requirement for ammo too, did that get tossed out?

Last edited by JohnKSa; December 29, 2010 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Removed off topic remarks.
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Old December 29, 2010, 10:07 PM   #6
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Discussing the ramifications and implications of this law is acceptable.

Posts or remarks discussing the general political situation in CA are not acceptable.
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Old December 29, 2010, 10:09 PM   #7
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I spoke with rep from Midway USA and she said they would not ship any ammunition to California as the law is too vague. So no .458 Winchester and no 9mm.
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Old December 29, 2010, 10:14 PM   #8
T B Good
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What few people don't know is that before 1980 in LA (I was a kid there) you had to give a thumb print and id. They stopped for years, than they started that same thing again several years ago. LA city residents can not buy over the internet, period. I know old friends who would drive to Vegas and stock up, I guess they'll be doing that again.
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Old December 29, 2010, 10:29 PM   #9
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more proof to the theory T B Good that history is a pendulum
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Old December 29, 2010, 10:29 PM   #10
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What I see is that this is just another way so the antis can trip up the gun dealers with record keeping violations and run them out of business. Wouldn't it of made more sense to do the instant background check for ammo instead?
NOT THAT I WANT THAT EITHER because they would of added a waiting period, I'll bet that's coming, but if they really wanted to stop criminals and not just eliminate guns and ammo altogether at least I could see their reasoning behind it. I've been screaming and yelling to anyone who will or won't listen and it's so futile. I really hate my local government.
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Old December 29, 2010, 10:52 PM   #11
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I have a couple of questions about this law. Does it apply to the dealers as well? If you wanted to sell ammo do you have to go over state lines to purchase the ammo in person to bring it back or are dealers required to purchase ammo only from the state run warehouse so exact counts of ammo are recorded? What do the laws say about components to make your own? Is there now also a law about transport over state lines of ammo? Is there a limit how much you could transport over state line for your own personal use? It seems they might have to set up state boarder crossing inspection stations to prevent people from getting past the new law.
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Old December 30, 2010, 12:24 AM   #12
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I know it may be hard, but let's keep CA politics out of this. JohnKSa has already deleted several posts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Discussing the ramifications and implications of this law is acceptable.

Posts or remarks discussing the general political situation in CA are not acceptable.
Between the record keeping and the vague (as in, no) definition of what actually constitutes primarily handgun ammunition, is it any wonder that all catalog and internet sellers will refuse to sell?

The one remaining lawsuit, filed in Fresno Superior Court, is fast tracked to reach a decision before the law goes into effect. If this fails, then on Feb. 1, OOIDA and/or State Ammunition can refile, as they would now be ripe.
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Old December 30, 2010, 04:18 AM   #13
gyvel
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Quote:
I guess it's time to start manufacturing 9MM , 45 ACP , 45 GAP or 40 SW long guns.
Already been done (with the possible exception of the .45 GAP).
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Old December 31, 2010, 02:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
I see it says " All orders for in-stock handgun ammunition shipped to customers in California must be placed by Jan. 21, 2011 " Does this mean non stock can still be bought online?
I would take this to mean that, if they have the ammo in stock, and you order it before Jan 21, 2011, they will ship it. If they don't have it in stock before the Jan date, no matter when you ordered it, it won't be shipped.

The law is vague on exactly what ammo is covered, and should be tossed by the courts for that, if no other reason. Ammo dealers are going to play it safe, and do nothing that would expose themselves to liability until this matter is fully resolved by the courts.

Good Luck.
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Old December 31, 2010, 05:57 PM   #15
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To quote that immortal Marine saying, "Semper Fi Mac, I got mine." I've been watching AB 962 (I'm a Californian who gets his range ammo via the internet) since its inception, and I have stocked up.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think the law suit in Fresno regarding this law has merit. Obviously, others do too, as it is getting full steam. And furthermore, the federal case, based upon other legal points, was dismissed "without prejudice" as being not yet "ripe". (Don't you love legal terms? What all that means is the suit is in limbo, awaiting events that could revive it.) The results of the Fresno case could "ripen" it. What else might is the fact that interstate commerce (dum de dum dum) in ammunition into California will cease when AB 962 takes effect. Shippers don't understand AB 962, and won't fool with us. I believe this interstate commerce issue will "ripen" the blazes out of the federal case.

May we live in interesting times,

Jack
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Old December 31, 2010, 06:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
I guess it's time to start manufacturing 9MM , 45 ACP , 45 GAP or 40 SW long guns.
yeah, already been done for a lone time (except for GAP).

Now how about the .410 Judge? If you buy for a long gun (.410 shotgun), then what's the deal??
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Old January 1, 2011, 12:46 AM   #17
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MadMag (and others), it's my understanding that the final language of the bill speaks to cartridges used principally in handguns. Which means making rifles in 45 GAP that sell only limited numbers would not change anything. Unless of course one of those lawsuits are successful and then that judge will likely set the parameters for what ammo can be sold without the new rules. The problem is that the law completely breaks down as soon as you limit it only to ammo sold exclusively for handguns, and the judge will know that. So if the case is heard but a anti-gun leaning judge he or she will be inclined to stay very focused and issue a ruling that perhaps changes little. On the other end of the spectrum, the judge will be forced to either toss out the entire law or gut the language so that it has little affect.
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Old January 1, 2011, 01:59 AM   #18
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The problem mes, is that the language of the law itself is ambiguous. The Judge cannot determine from the bench, what is and is not "ammunition primarily used in handguns." What would any such determination be based upon?

There are no studies anywhere, that purport to make such a determination. Such a decision would in fact be legislating from the bench. The only real course the Judge has, is to grant the injunction and hope the next legislative session qualifies what handgun ammunition is.
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Old January 1, 2011, 04:27 AM   #19
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So that kind of blanket covers all the dual purpose rounds? .22 is the one I buy a lot of online.

I'm about to become a Nevada or North Carolina legal resident. Nevada sounds good.
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Old January 1, 2011, 10:29 AM   #20
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I would think if they leave the ambiguous language stand then ammo companies will just mark their boxes "for rifle only" and ship to California.

If they change the language to cover all ammo, then I figure the weight of all the ammo smuggled into California will lower the state down to sea level.
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Old January 1, 2011, 10:53 AM   #21
WANT A LCR 22LR
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"" I would think if they leave the ambiguous language stand then ammo companies will just mark their boxes "for rifle only" and ship to California. ""



Oooo! Ding! Problem solved. " But it says right on the box, for rifle only. "
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Old January 1, 2011, 01:02 PM   #22
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Well it is a new year here in my home state of Kalifornia and we have added 725 new laws so we are now over 57,000 laws including way too many relating to firearms. Here is link - http://lamesa.patch.com/articles/the...w-ones-in-2011 - to an article headlined on Drudge Report from the LaMesa patch dated 12-31-2011 entitled "There Outta Be a Law..." My point, without getting political, as I am want to do, is that, aside from the new handgun ammuntion law, we will for sure get many more firearm related laws with a new governor and essentially the same old legislature. The comments section below the linked article says it all. Looking forward to a great New Year here in the Golden State.
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Old January 2, 2011, 12:11 AM   #23
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Al, I agree completely. But a judge must decide one way or another. The point I was trying to make was that the judge is going to be more driven by his or her stance on gun control than by the specific language of the law simply because it is so poorly written.
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Old January 2, 2011, 04:18 PM   #24
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Interesting point: the judge is hearing the case in Fresno, so probably lives there. If that judge instead lived in San Francisco or Los Angeles, I'd consider the case to be hopeless. But Fresno . . .

Cordially, Jack
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Old January 2, 2011, 05:47 PM   #25
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seems like the industry could squash this whole thing by simply refusing to sell ammo to state, county, and city agencies untill the citizens freedoms are restored
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