The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 27, 2010, 09:48 AM   #1
cajun47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Location: swamp people
Posts: 539
why a 12 ga for grizzly bears?

i have read that alaska's state police recommend a 12 ga with slugs for defense against grizzly bears. on sarah palin's alaska, she was practicing shooting charging grizzlies with 12 ga buckshot!

i haven't done penetration test for 12 ga slugs or buckshot cause when i tested them on large poster board at 25 and 50 yards i could barely hit the whole board with either round. at 50 yards i did 1000% better with handguns. im my case, my 12 ga shotguns will be the last resort weapon in any defensive case. i'll grab my sig 522(.22lr) with 25 reliable and accurate shots before a shotgun(its for the birds only). im talking home defense against bad guys now. back to grizzly bears.

wouldn't a good semi auto or even bolt .308 or 30-06 be more effective against grizzlies? i mean if you gonna carry a long gun, go for a high powered rifle and not a shotgun slug that shoots like a damn musket. and buckshot? hell, i rather my glock 19 and 31 round mag.
cajun47 is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 11:38 AM   #2
Carne Frio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2008
Location: Near Fairbanks Alaska
Posts: 733
If your hunting grizzlies, a high power rifle is the best; something
like 300 win mag or bigger.
12 gauge shotgun slugs work fine, inside of 40 yards for self defense
from charging bears. I prefer Brenneke 3 inch slugs.
Remember, if you shoot a grizzly and don't have hunting license and
a grizzly bear tag, you must justify to law enforcement that it was in
defense of life or property (as in pets or livestock). So, if you manage
to shoot a grizzly at 100 yards or greater, you could find yourself in
court explaining how you were defending yourself from a bear that
far away.
Carne Frio is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 11:43 AM   #3
L_Killkenny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,676
How about a 1 or 1 1/4 ounce hunk of lead (i.e. slug) moving at about 1500 fps? Just becasue you can't hit the broadside of a barn doesn't make them bad. I can print under 2" groups at 50 yards with my slug gun. 50 yards seems a bit long for bear SD anyway.

LK
L_Killkenny is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 11:47 AM   #4
Snakedriver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2010
Location: SW. Florida
Posts: 135
12 ga. slugs hit like a freight train, plus working a pump gun under pressure with a charging grizzly for follow-up shots will be a lot easier than a bolt gun. My large caliber bolt gun holds 4-shots, my 12 ga. holds 7.
__________________
Fear is a reaction................Courage is a decision!
Snakedriver is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 11:47 AM   #5
OlCrip
Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2010
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 68
Yeah, I'm not big on buckshot either but at 10' I expect they'd do the trick ... like if the bear was outside your tent and looking for a quick snack ... YOU.

Me, I'd feel much better with the Brenekes. The slugs out of my smoothbore M870 and M12 are quite accurate at their intended ranges.
__________________
"It is the province of knowledge to speak and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen".... Oliver Wendell Holmes
OlCrip is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 11:58 AM   #6
pichon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2009
Posts: 439
Bear spray seems to do the trick, but if I HAD to shoot a bear, 12ga slugs would be high on the list of defense options. They are huge chunks of lead that I am sure would give any bear pause, if it didn't kill it.
pichon is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 12:18 PM   #7
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,879
It's widely known that shotgun slugs tend to bounce off grizzly's heads on frontal shots and that's the usual shot when one is attacking. If I were to go into grizzly country, I'd feel more comfortable with a .338 Win Mag or larger, and a 454 Casull handgun to carry around the campsite.

That said, I won't be going there.
Picher is online now  
Old December 27, 2010, 12:54 PM   #8
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
There is nothing, within reason, that will stop any bear, no mater how big or mean, any better than a Dixie Slug and no it will not bounce off the bear's head. Here is link to Shotgun World Site "Ole' Dixie vs The Bone Box" dated 10 -18-07

"Terminator "Wound Channels"

The 730 grain hard cast .73 caliber Terminator moving out at 1268 FPS, penetrated 29 inches into the wet pack. This round blasted a 4 inch wide tapering tunnel for the biggest "wound channel" of the seminar!

The slightly deformed nose of the Terminator on the left above occured when one round was fired too close th to top of the paper. It exited the paper stack near the end of its travel and slammed into the heavy pine support board.

For comparison, a Federal .416 Rigby round with a 400 grain Partition, penetrated 30 inches with a considerably smaller displacement of the test medium. "


The Linebaugh Seminars prove how much better hard cast slugs or bullets are even when compared to fantastic bullets like the Nosler Partition out of big guns.
Even the Dixie Tri-Ball would be an awesome stopper as it penetrated two feet of wet news paper and for comparison # 4 buckshot will penetrate about 3 inches and OO buckshot will penetrate about 7 inches.


http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...?f=77&t=121981
jmortimer is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 12:56 PM   #9
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,565
Quote:
i have read that alaska's state police recommend a 12 ga with slugs for defense against grizzly bears. on sarah palin's alaska, she was practicing shooting charging grizzlies with 12 ga buckshot!
Several agencies suggest the use of 12 ga. slugs for various bears. As noted, there is a lot of defensive capability to be had out of a fairly short gun.

If you can't handle slugs, you can practice with buckshot, though just because Sarah Palin did something on TV doesn't make it right or wrong. Her apparently knowledge and gun skills as exhibited on the show really shows just how little she knows about guns, safety, and application.

Quote:
Remember, if you shoot a grizzly and don't have hunting license and
a grizzly bear tag, you must justify to law enforcement that it was in
defense of life or property (as in pets or livestock). So, if you manage
to shoot a grizzly at 100 yards or greater, you could find yourself in
court explaining how you were defending yourself from a bear that
far away.
Quote:
I can print under 2" groups at 50 yards with my slug gun. 50 yards seems a bit long for bear SD anyway.
Interesting comments. Y'all realize that the justification for self defense (inclusive of defense of property, livestock, and other people) is not based on the distance of the shooter to bear, but the distance of the bear to that which is being threatened, attacked or destroyed, right?

As is sometimes the case when groups are involved, not everyone is necessarily armed. The person shooting isn't necessarily the person being attacked.

Quote:
It's widely known that shotgun slugs tend to bounce off grizzly's heads on frontal shots and that's the usual shot when one is attacking.
What is "widely known" is a bit of a myth for all sorts of calibers, not just shotgun slugs. It isn't that the rounds are bouncing off the head. It is that the skull is being missed or that the angle of impact is so acute that the round glances off of the skull. This sort of glancing problen isn't uncommon with acute angles of impact on the skulls of a lot of animals including human.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 02:16 PM   #10
L_Killkenny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,676
Quote:
Interesting comments. Y'all realize that the justification for self defense (inclusive of defense of property, livestock, and other people) is not based on the distance of the shooter to bear, but the distance of the bear to that which is being threatened, attacked or destroyed, right?
For the premise of this discussion I took it as immediate SD. Not defence of property, livestock, etc etc. This is the intent for recommendations by the LEO's, Guides and Game Wardens and if you want to throw in defence of property go ahead, IMO it's not the direction of the thread and you only included it to cloud the issue. Take guides for instance. They don't recommend a hunter go bear hunting with a slug gun. But most of em pack a slug gun for back up and close in bear SD. Every, and I mean every, instance where I've been informed (verbal or print) as to bear encounters they are at close range. I can't recall any defensive shootings beyond 20 yards let alone beyond 50 yards. Why? Terrain would be one. Another? The fact that if a bear is at 100 yards it's not attacking you or someone in your immediate vicinity but if it does decide to attack you it will cover that ground very very quick. A ****** off bear can cover 50 yards in what? A few seconds? By the time you get the gun up and fire the bear is close. Real close. Nothing is set in stone but IMO 50 yards and under is a good barometer. That's why a sluggun is good. Beyond 50 yards.......not so good.

I've never seen anyone recommend a shotgun as protection of property from large bears. This could mean ranges up 100's of yards. That be rifle work. A big dang rifle!

By your thinkin we should all carry sniper rifles for SD becuase we may have to protect someone from a muggin 3 blocks away.

LK

Last edited by L_Killkenny; December 27, 2010 at 02:21 PM.
L_Killkenny is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 02:23 PM   #11
JiminTexas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2010
Posts: 149
I spent thirteen years in the bush of Alaska in my younger days and I can tell you for absolute gospel truth (from experience) that it doesn't matter if a 12 Ga slug will bounce off of a grizzley's skull for two reasons.
1. You aren't going to "aim" at a charging grizzly you are just going to shoot. You shoot a charging grizzly any damn place you can hit him.
2. Grizzleys are easy to knock down but they just keep gretting up. Knock them down and then aim and take the killing shot. You keep that up until you run out of ammunition and then yoiu throw the gun at him and run and pray that he bleeds out before he gets to you.
JiminTexas is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 03:01 PM   #12
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,759
I don't know anyone who can work a bolt or lever action rifle as fast as they can crank out slugs from a pump action 12 guage.

As far as buckshot goes, the closer a bear gets the more that buckshot is going to act like a slug before the balls have time to disperse. Buckshot wouldn't be my first choice for carry, but for practice it would be just fine.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 04:16 PM   #13
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnsota
Posts: 2,888
Im with JiminTexas,,But remember when you run,,run downhill as they can;t go down hill as fast as up hill...
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional
4runnerman is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 05:02 PM   #14
cajun47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Location: swamp people
Posts: 539
im talking sd against a grizzly at close range. maybe a bolt rifle isn't as fast as a pump 12 ga. but what about a semi auto rifle in .308 or even an ak47 with a 30 round mag?

if i would go hiking or camping in grizzly country, i would be wrong to carry my ak(personally i have 40 round mags) instead of my 12 ga with 7 slugs?????
cajun47 is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 05:05 PM   #15
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
For most folks, the reliability and cheap cost make the 12 pump the gun of choice over a rifle in a better cartridge design like the 375. It works.
oneounceload is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 05:30 PM   #16
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,759
Quote:
im talking sd against a grizzly at close range. maybe a bolt rifle isn't as fast as a pump 12 ga. but what about a semi auto rifle in .308 or even an ak47 with a 30 round mag?

if i would go hiking or camping in grizzly country, i would be wrong to carry my ak(personally i have 40 round mags) instead of my 12 ga with 7 slugs?????
Dude, it is your life and your equipment choice.

If all you have is a semi-auto 308 then carry it. But I would not recommend the 7.62x39 in any platform for bear defense. But if it is all you have, and you are willing to bet your life on it, let me know how that works out for ya.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 05:32 PM   #17
davlandrum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Lane County Oregon
Posts: 2,547
Quote:
what about a semi auto rifle in .308 or even an ak47 with a 30 round mag?

if i would go hiking or camping in grizzly country, i would be wrong to carry my ak(personally i have 40 round mags) instead of my 12 ga with 7 slugs?????
Cajun - you can do whatever you like, it is a free country.

But penetration is the key, not volume of fire.
__________________
U.S Army, Retired

Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do. -Potter Stewart
davlandrum is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 05:34 PM   #18
L_Killkenny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,676
Quote:
im talking sd against a grizzly at close range. maybe a bolt rifle isn't as fast as a pump 12 ga. but what about a semi auto rifle in .308 or even an ak47 with a 30 round mag?

if i would go hiking or camping in grizzly country, i would be wrong to carry my ak(personally i have 40 round mags) instead of my 12 ga with 7 slugs?????
You're 40 round mags will be 35 more than you will ever have a chance to get off. There have been studies done and even with a semi you are only gonna get "maybe" 4-5 rounds off in a bear charge. Thus you won't see anyone recommend a fairly enimic centerfire cartridge like the 7.62x39 for big bear SD. In the world of big bears the AK is a BB gun. A slug or 2 is that much better, you need to stop it in one or two shots not 40. If you were correct every guide in Alaska would be toting an AK, they aren't.
L_Killkenny is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 05:43 PM   #19
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,884
One might wish for a large rifle if charged by a large bear. However, in general when we are talking about defense in the context of a chance encounter, such as fishing or hiking, most people do not have a 45-7o or a 375 Mag.
Accordingly, one uses what is available. The cost of a 12 ga shotgun is much less than a large rifle, it is lighter, easier to handle for most people, and with the right slug is considered adequate by the game dept folks.

If I were hiking or fishing I would much rather carry a 12 ga than a large heavy rifle.

Regards,
Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 *¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 *For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 05:47 PM   #20
stellite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2009
Location: all over
Posts: 153
Quote:
In the world of big bears the AK is a BB gun.
good analogy and funny puts it in perspective.

The best protection against grizzlies is an awareness of how they act and where they like to be. This will keep you alive longer. There is plenty of advice from pro's on what to do. you might be better off with a large pepper spray fogger that floods the area inoffensively and causes the bear enough nuisance that it just leaves.

I like what someone once stated. Whatever rifle you get, make sure to remove the front sight. That way it does less damage when the bear sticks it up your rectum.

I know two people who have hunted grizzly and after their hunt stated they would never do it again. They came away with a very healthy fear and respect for this animal and where surprised at it's intelligence.
stellite is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 05:48 PM   #21
k31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2010
Location: utah for the time being
Posts: 213
i have taken 2 black bear with a 7.62x39 in an sks one was 40 yards out of my tree stand it put him down in one hit
he did run for about 200 yards but it did it
he laid down and balled like a baby just long enough to get me within 100 feet of where he was
but thats 285 lb. black bear
a grizz is a difrent story
bears dont like getting shot either it still hurt even them use what you have
__________________
"the best shooting firearm is the firearm you shoot best" Tony Marr
k31 is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 06:14 PM   #22
Gehrhard
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2009
Location: East of the Missississippippi
Posts: 675
I would agree that a 12 ga. would be most effective at close range. With nice, hard, slugs. No, even a Brown Bear's armor-plated head is no defense against a slug*. I might use plated 3" 00 or 000 Mag buckshot as well for defense, but not hunting Grizzly.

*In some ammo selections the bullet is particularly important. A soft .357 HAS been known not enter even a Blacka Bear's forehead, head on, but zip around it under the skin. In Alaska for Brown Bear I've carried Buffalo Bore Low Recoil hardcast .44 Mag rounds in a 5-shot (same as many Brush Pilots') revolver. In the Lower 48 I've carried .357 with Federal Vital-Shok hard CastCore for Black Bear (and would consider the same for its Browns in a pinch).

Bear spray? Better than nothing and maybe than a gun in some circumstances, but, do you really want to rely on the wind blowing in your favor!

Gehr

Last edited by Gehrhard; December 27, 2010 at 06:22 PM.
Gehrhard is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 06:31 PM   #23
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
If you can't handle slugs, you can practice with buckshot, though just because Sarah Palin did something on TV doesn't make it right or wrong. Her apparently knowledge and gun skills as exhibited on the show really shows just how little she knows about guns, safety, and application.
Sarah and her trainer are correct. For the average person, confronted by a charging bear, buckshot is the ticket. Reason being that your bear friend is charging at you head down, presenting a target at you smaller than the constitutional knowledge of the average Democratic Senator, that is moving faster than a Hoyt Wilhelm knuckleball.

All of which will be compounded by the release of your bowels.

So your best bet is to play anti aircraft guns over Irag and lay out a wall of lead as fast as you can since your chances of hitting a vital area is slim to none. Lay a load of 00 in it's muzzle and that bear is gonna turn, then you can let Fish n game find it while you change your pants.

And by the way, many guys up here who have been there and done it reccomend buckshot. The goal is to turn it since you probably aint gonna stop it.

WildsosarahisrightnyahnyahAlaska ™©2002-2010
Wildalaska is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 07:19 PM   #24
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,565
Quote:
For the premise of this discussion I took it as immediate SD. Not defence of property, livestock, etc etc. This is the intent for recommendations by the LEO's, Guides and Game Wardens and if you want to throw in defence of property go ahead, IMO it's not the direction of the thread and you only included it to cloud the issue.
Sorry if you failed to read the posts, but Carne Frio mentioned defense of property and livestock, so I am not "clouding" the issue. I just added defense of others which is definitely included under self defense law. You and Carne Frio mentioned specific distance issues with shootings being questionable for self defense. It has been a while since I worked up there, but I don't recall any laws that stipulate a given distance as defining what is or is not self defense. However, if I am wrong, please correct me.

Quote:
The fact that if a bear is at 100 yards it's not attacking you or someone in your immediate vicinity but if it does decide to attack you it will cover that ground very very quick.
You can shoot in self defense of another and it can be for a person not in your immediate vicinity. That is the beauty of firearms - standoff distance.

Quote:
A ****** off bear can cover 50 yards in what? A few seconds?
Depending on who you read and the conditions when timed, bears can run at 30-35 mph and can cover 50 yards from a standing start in just over 4 seconds and from if already moving, in about 3, though when acting defensively don't usually charge at those distances at full speed, but take off toward the threat at an intermediate speed as they assess the threat and decide whether to continue the charge to press the attack or breakoff. Once the decision to actually attack is made, then they may turn on the speed.

Notice the loping gait of the bears...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d7a_1277139136

Quote:
By your thinkin we should all carry sniper rifles for SD becuase we may have to protect someone from a muggin 3 blocks away.
Not my way of thinking. The distance issue was only in regard to what is or is not considered a defensive shooting and unless you have some Alaskan law to share with us, distance of the shot does not define what is or is not a defensive shooting. Your 50 yards is purely arbitrary.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old December 27, 2010, 07:22 PM   #25
pythagorean
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 970
The movies make you think a shotgun is best.
Reality proves otherwise.
If you go after a Grizzly you either have to have caliber

.458 Lott
Or reasonable firepower

without worrying about malfunction.
Or else die in the griz attack.
Normal hunting rifles will not suffice. You need an Elephant gun or you need a repeater that will not fail with enough cartridge to chop out the attack until the attacker is dead with multiple shots.
It's the 9mm hi cap v the .45 auto here--but you make your choice.
The shotgun is a bird gun for birds in flight.
pythagorean is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14456 seconds with 7 queries