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Old December 15, 2010, 11:18 PM   #1
xMINORxTHREATx
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Real Self Defense Situations

Originally I was going to post this in the Law area, but I'm posting this in the Training area, because people may read it and learn from it.


After reading how some people speak about using their concealed carry weapon, I wonder how many people have HAD to use it.

I have had to pull my gun in self defense three times (as a civilian), one of which ended in shots being fired.

1st major incident.
A car pulled into the alley next to my house and two guys got out and started shouting at each other. I was doing dishes and watched it through my window. I live two blocks away from a new Section 8 (welfare) housing projects, so this type of crap is becoming more and more common. :barf:

After drying my hands off, I went down stairs and grabbed my pistol and came back up. The fight had escalated and relocated. They were now in my front yard. First thought through my mind was a similar instance in my town where someone was beat to death in their neighbors front yard, and the neighbor got sued for not trying to stop the fight. So I walked out on to my front porch and yelled at the guys to break it up. One guy put his fist down and tried to reason with the other to stop, this guy (me) doesn't want us in his yard, lets go. The second guy then got a cheap shot on him and knocked him to the ground and started kicking him in the head while he was down. I ran full speed off my porch and tackled the guy to the ground and recovered as quick as possible. I shouted for him to leave. He got up and started walking towards me with a knife in his hand. I steadily walked backwards, while drawing my pistol, maintaining a good distance. He saw the pistol and froze. (I realized I didn't have a round in the chamber, I don't leave the gun loaded laying around) When I racked the slide, he realized I meant business, called me a "wussy with a gun" and ran away.

2nd major incident
My sister and her boyfriend had a rough break up and he was packing his stuff from her house and leaving. My step Dad, my pistol and I were there just in case. Started off calm enough but he was drunk and it started to escalate. It got to the point where he was in the front yard (my front yard gets a lot of abuse huh?) threatening us, pointing me out and telling me to hit him. I knew I wouldn't throw the first punch, let him hit me and he gets charged with assault. We called him a taxi, paid for it, and he was about to leave when he flipped out of no where, broke a beer bottle on the taxi's hood and threw it at my step dad. Well my step dad's temper finally broke and he started charging the guy and I had to run up to him and stop him. By the time I got there, they were chest to chest and when I tried to hold my step dad back, the boyfriend caught me in the back of the head. I side stepped and my step dad started to brawl with him. I pulled them apart, got kicked a few times, and held the guy down. He managed to grab a shard of glass and slice my arm with it. I stood up, unholstered and took aim. After that he was a perfect gentleman.
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Old December 15, 2010, 11:20 PM   #2
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Forgot to mention.

The one time I did have to shoot in self defense. A wild boar got the jump on me while rock climbing in Arizona. I don't know if you have ever been near a p***ed off boar, but they are deadly. Apparently five PowrBall rounds are deadlier.
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Old December 16, 2010, 01:08 AM   #3
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In the first situation you may want to have your cell phone handy. I have read some reports on the situation you described regarding home owner liability and third party altercations on the owner's premises. I would suggest Calling the 'five oh' first and then proceed as you did.

If you find yourself living in close proximity to Section 8, you have my commiserations. Cameras trained to only monitor your property are a very helpful asset. Avoid privacy issues and be sure to aim the cameras only on your property. The cases i have examined where property owners "did nothing" there is usually some other circumstance not totally accounted for that lead to their legal issues.

I don't necessarily trust the 'fuzz'. i do know they do not trust you or me so the cameras can save you from arguments of that sort.

Your second situation, i would only recommend that you keep in mind the boy scout wood working merit badge "always remain outside the blood circle" if your potential adversary has cutlery, stand off. I recommend training your step father and any other associates similarly. If they step into the circle they are on their own; till you have a clear shot. In emotional situations you can speak with your local precinct and have someone on hand before things escalate.
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Old December 16, 2010, 03:11 AM   #4
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All Circumstances Are Different

Iv'e been carrying concealed for 30 years. Almost had to use the about 4 times. You never know where or when trouble may come at you.

Awareness is #1 you can't be taken by suprise, and you have to make sure that your on the right side of the law. If you can get out of the situation without the gun, do so.

I wouldn't pull the gun until you are sure that you are really ready to act. If you draw it to soon he may dare you to shoot and make a fool of you or worse get in legal trouble.

On the other hand I would't hesitate if the situation warrants it. Don't hesitate to shoot or you may be taking a trip to the morgue. CAN you shoot to kill?

A couple of times I had to talk myself out of it, so I know that I can shoot to kill

If you can safely leave, there is no shame, and I'd consider you the winner.
I almost had to shoot a guy that was going to kill me. It would have been in front of his son who was abuot 2 years old plus his ole lady. I left fast, and have no regrets.
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Old December 16, 2010, 08:30 AM   #5
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Eagle, thank you for that. There is a difference between emotionally being capable of doing it, and wanting to.

Some people don't get that.

As for being emotionally capable, I have no doubt that I would be able to defend myself with gun fire. If I can do it while wearing a uniform, I can do it wearing civilian clothes.
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Old December 16, 2010, 08:35 AM   #6
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I did call the police in the first situation, albeit after it happened.

In the second situation, I definitely wasn't anticipating he would grab a piece of glass from the beer bottle, but it was about 11 at night, so visibility was minimal. I admit in hindsight I should have reacted differently, but in my mind it was this young guy (25 years old) fighting my step dad (61 years old.) And that's a lop-sided fight.
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Old December 16, 2010, 09:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
I wouldn't pull the gun until you are sure that you are really ready to act. If you draw it to soon he may dare you to shoot and make a fool of you or worse get in legal trouble.
I would offer that pulling a gun later rather than sooner may be too late. My training has always stressed that I should pull as soon as I have a reasonable expectation that I may need to use my weapon. Especially if the threat is within seven yards of me.
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Old December 16, 2010, 11:10 PM   #8
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If you had fired your gun and hurt anyone in either of the two incidents you have described, you'd have been charged and convicted.
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Old December 17, 2010, 04:29 AM   #9
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First thing to realize : The guy with a gun is always the bad guy. Police are usurpers of the constitution, they act as judge/jury. You are guilty.

Second: it is better to get beat up than defend yourself. You will need a lawyer and lose thousands of dollars, even if not guilty.


Fourth: Carrying can benefit you only against hardened criminals. You will go to jail for pulling on a non-criminal. Even if a non-criminal attacks you. Take the beating and have him arrested, enjoy your hospital bills.

How do I know this? First hand experience. I was convicted of aggravated assault even though 3 people attacked me. All I did was show my holster, the guys ran, police through me in Jail. These guys were all bigger than me to, how's that for a kicker.
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Old December 17, 2010, 06:33 AM   #10
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You ran off your porch !! That was very foolish and put you in a very bad situation !! You went from being an observer to a participant .You no longer could claim 'defense' !
Proper actions in a situation would be to pick up gun in one hand and phone in the other .Stay in the house not on the porch.Let the cops deal with it , that's what they're there for.
Get yourself some serious training !
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Old December 17, 2010, 07:08 AM   #11
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I don't think things here are quite as bad as you suggest, 5561, although I don't know where you live.

An attack by a non-criminal? That's messing with language, not the law.
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Old December 17, 2010, 08:52 AM   #12
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How you handled things is really your business. Neither I nor anyone else was in your situation - hard to comment on what's right or wrong unless you were there.

I do have one question, though - what pistol and in what caliber did you use to kill the pig? How many shots did it take to stop its aggression?
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Old December 17, 2010, 09:09 AM   #13
xMINORxTHREATx
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Mete, I figured being attached to the 101st would be decent enough training, but what do I know. As I stated, I was confronted with a KNIFE!!!! Which in Ohio, justifies using your concealed carry weapon. I wouldn't have done anything had it happened on the street, but in my front yard, thats a different story. Remember: same thing happened before to someone in the same town, same situation, and they got sued and charged.

556, I should have mentioned this, turned out my sisters boyfriend had a warrant.


I have spoken with a few LEOs from my hometown and described the situations and they all said that worst case scenario, I would get disturbing the peace or something similar. Ohio is lenient with the "Castle law."

PIG NOTHING. This thing was more like a small bear!!! I fired 3 9mm PowrBall rounds, and my father hit it with 2 .38 Special.
I know things get exaggerated in the heat of the moment, but honestly, this thing was the size of Honda. It's tusks stuck out about three inches.
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Old December 17, 2010, 09:21 AM   #14
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OK, folks, let's get something straight...

I get REALLY sick about people crying and whining about how US Police are the New Nazi Nation incarnate.

My family's immediate circle of friends and acquaintances has, over the years, included a number of individuals who felt the FULL force of Nazi police order.

You THINK you have had it bad in your dealings with US police?

Any of you been beaten so hard and so badly that you still have the scars nearly 70 years later?

Any of you spend years as a "guest" in an "exercise resort," also known as a forced labor camp?

Any of you have all of your possessions confiscated simply because of your religion?

Any of have most of your family wiped off the face of the earth just because of your religion?

Let's get something straight, and get it straight RIGHT NOW.

The next person who starts bitching about "Nazi police in the Nazi Police State of Amerika" will never set foot on this board again.


Oh, if your post has been edited or removed? Don't even bother to ask about it.
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Old December 17, 2010, 09:31 AM   #15
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Mike, I didn't wanna step on toes, but THANK YOU for saying something. That crap annoys the holy hell out of me.
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Old December 17, 2010, 09:33 AM   #16
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Seems like every time I go to the country range, I've got to defend myself against the inevitable "perilous attack of the soda cans". Those things just never give up, and I've even found a couple in my garage at night, rooting through my refrigerator no less.

Now I'm not a prejudiced man, but I shoot those things on sight whenever I get a bad feeling about one.
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xMinorxThreatx:
You seldom find people on these forums who will tell you about events in which they've actually had to defend themselves with gunfire against an assailant; for personal, legal, and emotional reasons, I don't feel that it's hard to guess why.

What you probably will get a plethora of are people talking about times where they've felt threatened, or brandished and ended an encounter; as you've kindly shared as well. Thank you. We all learn from our own and each other's experiences.

I've had to pull my sidearm a few times, and only fired once to defend myself (against a dog). If I get some more time, I'll share what happened.
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556Isdeadly:
Please don't take offense to this, but you are riding a very thin line of violating the rules around here. Blanket statements intended to incite argument like these:
Quote:
Carrying can benefit you only against hardened criminals. You will go to jail for pulling on a non-criminal. Even if a non-criminal attacks you. Take the beating and have him arrested, enjoy your hospital bills.
are unwelcome by all, and aren't the least bit constructive.

I can see how having a significantly negative legal experience could cause you to have a cynical view of defense law, but as it stands I feel that we need to make a clarification regarding what you've said.

All 50 states have self-defense laws permitting private citizens to apply reasonable force, up to and including deadly force, in an effort to save themselves from loss of life, or significant bodily harm. That is the law. And in many cases that have documentation, history, precedent, and much press, the victims who defended themselves with their weapons aren't even initially charged and later dropped. It's literally open and shut. That's why we have idiomatic terminology like "Clear-cut case of self-defense".

In no way should anyone be told that submitting to violence against them and/or their family is the proper course of action. Private citizens have the right to match violence with violence in order to defend themselves; and are protected legally under those rights. If you have to fight a legal battle regarding your proper, and lawful use of force in self defense, you should contact the NRA who would probably love to help you, and will pay you to publish your story in "The Armed Citizen".

Finally...
Quote:
Carrying can benefit you only against hardened criminals. You will go to jail for pulling on a non-criminal. Even if a non-criminal attacks you. Take the beating and have him arrested, enjoy your hospital bills.
Yes, it is true that carrying a weapon can help you to defend yourself against a criminal. And yes, you will go to jail if you pull your weapon on a "non-criminal", because that's called intimidation and it's a crime that YOU'VE committed, making YOU the criminal. If a "non-criminal" attacks you, they've just committed a crime which immediately displaces the proper title of "non-criminal", making the previous sentence irrelevant.
Let me equate your premise and conclusion into another form for clarification on its errors.
"Carrying Bear-repellent will only benefit you against bears. It won't help at all against deer. Even if that deer turns into a bear. Just get mauled by the deer-turned-bear and hope the Rangers and bear-trappers get him. Enjoy yourself."

Trust me, the syllogism is sound. It sounds ridiculous because it is. Please try not to be destructively cynical. It's not constructive at all, which is our goal.

~LT
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Old December 17, 2010, 09:39 AM   #17
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Mike and LT, both spot on. Thanks for the sanity.

--Wag--
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Old December 17, 2010, 09:45 AM   #18
xMINORxTHREATx
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LT, I've noticed one thing in life, people don't follow their own advice. I'm sure if he was sliced open by someone in a fight, he wouldn't just "take the beating."

Pulling a gun on a non-criminal would be an accurate statement if someone was walking their dog and it dumped in my yard and I came out with a shotgun ranting about cleaning up after their mutt.
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Old December 17, 2010, 09:52 AM   #19
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It is constructive in my opinion. The best policy is avoidance; if someone attacks you in public on a busy street, downtown or during daylight, I would just call the police and if the guy(or 3 guys) hits you, don't pull. Unless your injury is apparent you will be arrested.

When arrested for a violent crime, you could be in Jail months(unconstitutionally) unless you pay bond. It's a scary reality. Bribing the state to stay free, more or less.

When a firearm is involved make sure you think like a policeman; who will be the bad guy, if it's just hearsay?

To protect yourself legally and avoid this, use your cell phone to record video. I would have been clear if I had recorded the situation.
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Old December 17, 2010, 10:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
To protect yourself legally and avoid this, use your cell phone to record video. I would have been clear if I had recorded the situation.
If an event turns life-threatening, you'll be doing good if you can quickly unholster your gun and fire a couple of rounds into the BG. Taking videos with a cell-phone? If you have time to do that, then just dial 911!

FWIW, the last thing I would want is some kind of crazy video to survive if I had to shoot/kill a bad guy to protect myself, that some Prosecutor can selectively edit to make me look guilty as sin
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Old December 17, 2010, 10:07 AM   #21
xMINORxTHREATx
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Yeah, if someone trying to attack me, I'm not going to take the time to record my own beating on cell phone. I will fight back first.


I admit, I probably could have disarmed either, but why risk being stabbed? You can react how you want, I will react how I want, and whatever comes of it will happen.


Now, going back to the original post, does anyone else have a learning experience to share?
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Old December 17, 2010, 10:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
It is constructive in my opinion.
Honestly, it was not constructive in the least; which is why the moderator had to step in. However, this...

Quote:
When a firearm is involved make sure you think like a policeman; who will be the bad guy, if it's just hearsay?

To protect yourself legally and avoid this, use your cell phone to record video. I would have been clear if I had recorded the situation.
...is quite constructive to the discussion at hand, and I thank you for it. You SHOULD think like a police officer (dry, fact-based logic. Who, what, where, why, and are you justified in what you did LOGICALLY and not emotionally) and having a recording of the precipitating events could add significant weight to your story.

However, I must offer that advising someone to take a video of a self-defense encounter sounds like advice from someone who has never been in a self-defense encounter. If you are fighting for your life or limb, you need both your feet, all ten fingers, both arms, every wit you can muster, and probably a weapon. Somehow pulling out my cell-phone, waiting for my camera app to load and then attempting to take a discernible video of the event while fighting for my life doesn't exactly, in my mind, rate anywhere close to "Am I going to have to kill this guy?" or "Where's the best cover, and how do I get away?"

Now, I can hope against all hope that a bystander pulls out their phone and tapes it; as I am not going to be unjustified in displaying my weapon anyway. But that's about where my thoughts on surveillance end when I'm confronted by a man that wants my life.

~LT
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Old December 17, 2010, 10:53 AM   #23
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neither situation was a self defense situation.

you chose to intervene and leave the inside in the first situation thus causing any number of self defense probabilities.

the second situation was only a self defense situation because you chose it to be.

His stuff should have been packed and put outside without his involvement.
He can come get it when sober.

Nobody need be outside while he is there.
Should he try to break in, then adequate responses become applicable.

you seem to be very macho when holding a pistol.

But life choices are less expensive and much less dangerous when you remain inside and armed
notify authorities.
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Old December 17, 2010, 11:15 AM   #24
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xMINORxTHREATx

Back to the OP

In 10 years of CCW I have never had an occasion to show, pull or fire my weapon. My wife is a Vet (Horse Doc) and has had to draw hers once and fire it once.

First time was 2 BG coming up on her fast as she was getting to her truck and tell her "Just give us the drugs lady" (I cleaned it up a bit). She told them she had to get her keys and pulled out her revolver, they immediately backed off and ran. She then phoned 911 then me and made a report, never did catch them.

Second time same type scenario but it was a BG with a knife, she didn't even try the keys BS, she drew and shot him in the shoulder twice,he stumbled off. She locked herself in the truck and dialed 911. This BG still has 10 years to finish his sentence.

Two things we did after the second time was get rid of anything that identified the truck as belonging to a Vet, and get an automatic door lock/unlock system, and ONstar in case her cellphone is lost or broken in a struggle.
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Old December 17, 2010, 12:22 PM   #25
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LordTio3 wrote:

Quote:
556Isdeadly:
Please don't take offense to this, but you are riding a very thin line of violating the rules around here. Blanket statements intended to incite argument like these:

Quote:
Carrying can benefit you only against hardened criminals. You will go to jail for pulling on a non-criminal. Even if a non-criminal attacks you. Take the beating and have him arrested, enjoy your hospital bills.

are unwelcome by all, and aren't the least bit constructive.

From 'California Firarms Laws':

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf

Quote:
Self-Defense Against Assault

It is lawful for a person being assaulted to defend himself or herself from attack if he or she
has reasonable grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that he or she will suffer
bodily injury. In doing so, he or she may use such force, up to deadly force, as a
reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would believe necessary to prevent
great bodily injury or death. An assault with fists does not justify use of a deadly weapon
in self-defense unless the person being assaulted believes, and a reasonable person in the
same or similar circumstances would also believe, that the assault is likely to inflict great
bodily injury.
Well the objected to passage by 556Isdeadly might be viewed as constructive by some, so relax. I looked it up and in California one is required, for the most part, to take a beat down without drawing a weapon (escalation of force). I can see where evaluation of who, or whom, you are being assaulted by might be very important in decidng upon ones actions ... at least here in California. This I suspect would very by county that the incident occured in. A jury in Marlin County I suspect would view any altercation different from a jury in, say, Alpine County. I also suspect the Officers in Alpine County have a different mindset than those in LA County. 556Isdeadly's experiences might be different from yours, and might believe his opinion is valid.

I hope being 'Real' is more insiteful, and more important in these discussions, than being 'Politically correct'. I know I would be reacting differently if the person getting in my face with threats of 'Kicking my butt' was a 300 pound Hells Angel, as opposed to a 120 pound young college kid. I could be totally wrong in my quick judgement, but those prejudices would still be working for, or against me.

Best advice from my view is to stay inside and retreat whenever possible. The 'Horse Doctor' scenarios happen and I am surprised she did not shoot the first pair who assaulted her.
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