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Old December 17, 2010, 07:59 PM   #51
Webleymkv
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Penetrating cover is a legitimate concern as I can think of at least two instances in which you would be justified in shooting someone through something:

Scenario 1: BG has entered your home. You've corralled yourself and any loved ones into a safe room and the BG is now actively attempting to kick in the door. You've announced that he may take anything he likes outside that room, but that the police have been called and that you are armed and will shoot him if he continues his current course of action. BG continues to try and kick the door in. At this point, I think you'd probably be justified in sending a round through the door because A) there is an immediate threat and B) you know that there are no innocent bystanders in your line of fire.

Scenario 2: You are accosted while in your vehicle in the middle of rush hour. You're in stopped bumper-to-bumper traffic and cannot escape. The BG is actively trying to pry your door open and/or break out your window. At this point, I think you'd be justified in sending a round through the car door.
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Old December 19, 2010, 03:49 PM   #52
DAS9mm
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See boxoftruth.com, rifles have no trouble doing a through and through of a car. I think they used a Buick. 45 acp and 9mm can almost penetrate both sides of a car.

I agree with leave if BG is hiding in dumpster.

Many states, east and west coasts, have Castle doctrines. I don't think it would matter where the BG was hiding if he was within the curtilage of one's dwelling.

"The area, usually enclosed, encompassing the grounds and buildings immediately surrounding a home that is used in the daily activities of domestic life.

A garage, barn, smokehouse, chicken house, and garden are curtilage if their locations are reasonably near to the home. The determination of what constitutes curtilage is important for purposes of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures of a person and of his or her home or property. Courts have construed the word home to include curtilage so that a person is protected against unlawful searches and seizures of his or her curtilage." http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/curtilage

What I am trying to say is, I think my refrigerator is within my curtilage.
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Old December 20, 2010, 05:06 PM   #53
booker_t
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Seems like this question of penetration through cover just keeps coming up, and everybody has a story about what they shot in their backyard, or vaguely recalls some "tests" they saw on YouTube.

I submit for your review, Internet Sheepdogs, an informal 2005 study by the DEA NY Firearms Unit. Bottom line, cars are not good cover.

http://www.anret.org/Downloads/ballistics.pdf

Highlights for those who don't like to read:

-> "..with the exception of buckshot, almost all of the rounds fired..did penetrate and strike the targets inside of the test vehicle."
-> "..the car door did not reliably stop any pistol ammunition and it did not stop any of the rifle ammunition."
-> "Pistol ammunition penetrated both sides of the trunk and the target."

Don't quote me on this, but from a quick search, roll-off dumpsters have wall thickness (in the areas that aren't reinforced) between 3 and 5 millimeters. I'm not sure of the material, I would guess mild steel in most cases, perhaps some are low-grade aluminum.


Also, some food for thought. You've been attacked, and now you're in a gunfight. The violent hoodlum thug, hopped-up on drugs with his sideways Gat and Sox hat to match, gets behind some sort of cover and you, the responsible, mindful, safety-first, internet-reading, Gunsite/Frontsight/Magpul Dynamics trained, law-abiding NRA-supporting gun owner are out in the open, holding your meticulously cleaned and maintained pistol, considering which round to shove into your reload. Something ain't right if you got yourself in that deep.

Last edited by booker_t; December 20, 2010 at 05:38 PM.
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Old December 21, 2010, 02:18 PM   #54
woodguru
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Webleymkv

You aren't thinking your scenarios through very well.

Guy is trying to get into your car, I'm pretty sure all you have to do is show him a gun and his desire to get into the car with you won't be nearly as strong as he originally thought it was.

Catch my drift? Why would you want to send a round through the door when all you can see is his backside beating feet? Mission accomplished without having to fire a single shot.
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Old December 21, 2010, 02:42 PM   #55
woodguru
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Now This Is A Funny Dumpster Situation

Okay, this is an example of who's hiding in a dumpster not being a problem among other examples.

I had a car parked by my business building in an industrial area, and the wheels got ripped off. I come into work and it's on junk rims with the wheels gone.

Well this has me a bit PO'd, so I replace the BBS wheels and leave it for bait figuring those who got my first ones wouldn't be able to resist another set. I'm sleeping on the couch in my office, sleeping light when I hear a noise. I come running out the side door and hear the dumpster lid bang closed and figure I have my thieves dead to rights.

I'm crouched in my best battle stance with a Python pointed at the dumpster and I yell out "come out of that dumpster, NOW". The lid opens and this poor little completely scared senseless guy pokes his head out with his arms up.

I can still hear his terrified voice saying, "don't shoot me, I'm just a poor dumpster diver looking for cans".

I sheepishly told him I'm not going to shoot you for stealing cans, as you were, there's a lot of cans in there. I had about 60 employees so that dumpster always had a lot of soda cans in it.

The moral of that story is that it's awfully easy to start projecting your defense situations where they aren't warranted. I gotta admit to feeling incredibly stupid.

No preaching needed here, I'm pretty much aware of all the things wrong with what I was doing, including the baiting of thieves. I did learn lessons as I went along.
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Old December 23, 2010, 11:13 AM   #56
Classickbass
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I have only had my permit 2 years and have never had to pull my weapon(Glock 21 SF) on anyone, thank God. But I was taught in the handgun carry permit course that one was only allowed to pull your weapon and fire it at a person 'if you feel your life is being threatened'. How threatened would I feel by a guy who dives into a dumpster when I pull my gun? I agree with leaving the scene and calling 911 when given the opportunity to do so. The threat is no longer there, I have ample time to move out of his line of sight, and am equipped with a cell phone to call trained professionals who will give this man a fresh pair of bracelets and a place to stay for a couple of years while he ponders his error in judgment. Why would I stick around and exchange needless fire, with a chance of shooting an innocent passerby, when I can simply defuse the situation with a few quick steps to one side or the other?

Most importantly, I would try to keep some view of his whereabouts to assist the authorities when they arrive. I wouldn't just turn a blind eye to the problem of this man running around the neighborhood with a gun and bad intentions.
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Old December 23, 2010, 03:20 PM   #57
brickeyee
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Unlike the police who may need to capture and detain a person, that is not a real part of CCW.

Our only task is to save ourselves from death (or grave harm) and possibly loved ones.

If the perpetrator chooses to exit at the display of a firearm you are not going to get away with claiming he was still a threat.

Chasing him down is NOT a good idea.
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Old December 23, 2010, 03:52 PM   #58
markj
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Arent most dumpsters on wheels? I drive a truck, bet I could get a dumpster up to 50 or so MPH then slow and watch the fun times....
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Old December 23, 2010, 11:26 PM   #59
Steviewonder1
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I would break left or right and run away with the following notes. If at the end of an alley I came into by mistake!, I do a 180 and get out of Dodge after firing 3-10 rounds into the top of the dumpster. Noise can cover your fleeting moments...
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Old December 24, 2010, 08:27 AM   #60
brickeyee
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Quote:
Arent most dumpsters on wheels?
Smaller dumpsters may be on wheels, but larger ones (and roll-offs) or normally on skid plates (at best).

If the perp dives into one and takes himself out of the fight, the fight is OVER (unless he continues firing at you).
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