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Old December 12, 2010, 12:28 AM   #26
Erik
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Two things:

The presumption that bad guys do not/will never utilize cover is based upon what?

The presumption that in the event that they do utilizing cover you be afforded the opportunity to flee is based upon what?

Just curious.
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Old December 12, 2010, 03:41 AM   #27
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If the BG jumps in a dumpster (see original post), you cannot see him. If you cannot see him, then he cannot see you. Seems elementry to me. If BG cannot see you, it certainly strikes me as an opportunity to flee. What presumptions are you using to think otherwise ?
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Old December 12, 2010, 04:29 AM   #28
bayhawk2
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The whole idea behind conceal carry is to "Stop an Attack".
I would'nt want to stick it out for the gun battle at the O.K.corral.
I have carried a Tracker .44 magnum a time or two.A little un-
comfortable to me to carry such a large gun.In the winter time it's not bad.
It's easy to conceal.Load it with some FMJ's and it will go through stuff.

Thing is?You shoot the bad guy,it goes right through him.Hardly slowing
the bullet down,if no bones are hit.It finally stops in the Kroger store down
the road.It sure could do a lot of damage on its journey.I carry a 9 M.M.
JHP.Probably do more damage to the bad guy with it.











if

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Old December 12, 2010, 09:10 AM   #29
Mike Irwin
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Given the dumpsters I've seen/used over the years, I'd be very surprised if most handgun rounds would be able to reliably penetrate one. The metal is pretty thick, and they tend to have a lot of internal reinforcement.
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Old December 12, 2010, 11:57 AM   #30
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Quote:
Given the dumpsters I've seen/used over the years, I'd be very surprised if most handgun rounds would be able to reliably penetrate one. The metal is pretty thick, and they tend to have a lot of internal reinforcement.
Even rifle rounds won't penetrate. They will penetrate one side of your average dumpster, but won't penetrate the other. Works just like spaced armor, same reason rifle rounds easily penitrate one car door, but have trouble penetrating the other door. Far more likely a BG will hide behind the dumpster rather than jump in.

Quote:
Or get an NFA tag on a sawed off shotgun loaded with slugs.
You'll give the BG a nice headache by ringing the dumpster like a church bell, but a slug won't penetrate dumpster steel.

You do get a nice light-show with slugs though.

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Old December 12, 2010, 12:55 PM   #31
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I think you're best served by choosing a particular pistol and load, then sticking to it and practicing.

Taking a step back, and examining the OP's idea, I think that having different types of ammo for different situations may have some utility (it is usually pointed to as an advantage of shotguns), but for a self-defense oriented handgunner, it isn't a good idea. Overthinking the basic problem of personal defense by trying to include unlikely scenarios complicates the issue.

The overwhelming majority of valid self-defense shootings are quick, stressful encounters that preclude the relatively cool decision to switch to a specific reload based on a tactical problem. I'd rather have a simple, reliable system, then solve whatever tactical problems arise through marksmanship, retreat, calling for help, etc.

That said, having a reload of FMJ probably wouldn't hurt. I'm just saying I don't think you would ever need it.
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Old December 12, 2010, 01:46 PM   #32
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I've been down in a dumpster, . . . and if some knuckle-dragger comes along and bangs something on the side of it, . . . your ears can ring like thunder.

Knowing that, . . . if someone that "was" shooting at me, hopped into a dumpster, . . . I'd probably take the advice given earlier and exit stage left, . . . but I'd also ring the dumpster with 3 or 4 rounds just to confuse him and keep his head down so I could make my escape.

Course then again, . . . that only works if the dumpster is MT, . . . but I'd probably do it anyway so I could "assist" my departure.

May God bless,
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Old December 12, 2010, 03:40 PM   #33
Erik
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The OP:

"I'm considering replacing one of my speedloaders with FMJ to get greater penetration. I would hate to get caught in a situation where a BG had some great cover and I had no chance of hitting him."

Rhetorically, where and why the "hopped into a dumpster" talk came from is irrelevant to the thread.

As noted, most dumpsters will defeat most efforts to shoot through them.

How about mailboxes and other common items of cover?

It is good to know what you can and can't shoot through, if not because you intend to try to defeat cover, then because you intend to use cover.

And no, I don't think that it would be a good idea to hop in a dumpster or to try to mail yourself under fire. ;-)
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Old December 12, 2010, 05:30 PM   #34
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The title of the thread referred to dumpster, not mail boxes.
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Old December 12, 2010, 06:21 PM   #35
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Dumpsters?

I think you will need a rifle for that.

With the exception of AP pistol ammo, banned as 'cop killers', the only realistic way to get inside a dumpster with a firearm is a rifle.

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Old December 12, 2010, 07:13 PM   #36
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So maybe you'd wanna switch to a Molotov cocktail at that point?
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Old December 12, 2010, 10:00 PM   #37
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Cook the turkey eh ?
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Old December 13, 2010, 12:05 AM   #38
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Quote:
So maybe you'd wanna switch to a Molotov cocktail at that point?
Just don't make them like you see in the movies and set yourself on fire.
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Old December 13, 2010, 07:18 AM   #39
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One of the points I think we are missing is that the OP was considering having FMJ in "one of my speedloaders". Since we have pretty much beat to death the fact that most pistol rounds have virtually no chance of penetrating a dumpster, I would like to address the fact that doing a tactical reload on a revolver while under the stress involved in a life and death struggle may not be the best time to have the question bouncing around in your head "Which speedloader do I grab?" or "Did I load the right one?"
Most often the best answer is the KISS method (keep it simple stupid), do your homework, pick the load that most suits your purposes, and go with it.
+1 R1145 - Pick one load, stick to it and practice.
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Old December 13, 2010, 10:46 PM   #40
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
Pick one load, stick to it and practice.
And keep a rifle in your car's trunk!

Deaf
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Old December 14, 2010, 07:47 AM   #41
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Cover vs. Concealment

Cover is the natural thing to think about in this situation. It's the point my mind used to naturally gravitate towards paying attention to. I'd enter a situation and immediately check cover.

Until I paid for some private professional firearms training. An ex-cop trainer, nothing sexy, but all very practical and real world stuff. One of the things that most stuck out in my mind after all that is how important concealment is. There are plenty of places to be that will not stop a bullet, but you cannot see me to hit me and I can still see YOU and shoot YOU. These are most important when I'm the aggressor and you don't even know I'm there, but even if you know I exist, if I'm behind a 30' row of thick hedges with a gun, and you're under the light in the middle of a parking lot, guess what, you're screwed!

The dumpster situation is terrifying for that precise reason. There are little nooks and holes in those things that someone could see from and shoot, meanwhile, I can't necessarily hit back.

So in this situation, my choice would be to ring the dumpster, shoot one where they'd just jumped in, and run like hell for safety.

--JP
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Old December 14, 2010, 03:32 PM   #42
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BG in the dumpster...

Just call the trash company and have the BG hauled off to the dump where he belongs...BTW, make sure the compactor is utilized.
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Old December 14, 2010, 07:48 PM   #43
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Ok, I have a way to defeat the dumpsters!

We need OC grenades!

Yes pepper bombs! Can you imagine a OC grenade going off in a closed dumpster? Kind of tough for them to sit there! And you can always pop smoke to blind them while you sneek up to drop the OC grenade in their laps.

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Old December 15, 2010, 09:49 AM   #44
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If you are shooting through a dumpster or other barrier, then I think you need to re-evaluate if this situation is truly "self-defense". If someone is behind cover and you can't see them, then how do you know there is a "clear and present danger"? I think we should articulate further the exact scenarios in which we feel the need to shoot someone through a barrier.

If we were soldiers during war-time, then that is a different scenario. If someone with a drawn pistol suddenly decided to retreat and duck behind a dumpster, would you be justified to fire at them through that dumpster?

I think one can get into a lot of hot water with the justice system unless they approach this scenario very carefully. If someone is resting behind a dumpster and is not pointing a weapon at someone else, then there is no clear or present danger. In any event, you will have to justify your logic to a judge or jury or at the very least a grand jury...just something to think about when considering if you should shoot through objects.

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Old December 15, 2010, 10:50 AM   #45
Glenn E. Meyer
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I think the presumption is that you have been already engaged by the dumpster dude who is still in the fight.

No one is suggesting you just plink a dumpster with a 50 BMG to see what's behind it.
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Old December 15, 2010, 04:13 PM   #46
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Quote:
Can you imagine a OC grenade going off in a closed dumpster?
That may kill a person.
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Old December 15, 2010, 07:47 PM   #47
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dumpsters cannot be penetrated by the avg caliber. shotgun, 9mm,45acp. im talking about the bfi dumpster. iv known people who shot at them and it easily withstood the force.
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Old December 16, 2010, 07:47 AM   #48
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On topic

The thing about it is that I know if I use deadly force against someone, I'm probably in some legal hot water. So I will be absolutely certain its self-defense.

But here's a situation I ran into in real life.

Presumed BG opening basement garage door at 2AM, making a lot of racket. I lived way out in the country at the time. I grab my 12 gauge and head downstairs. I'm thinking it's B&E and the guy isn't wanting a gunfight, so I arm the second and third occupant of the house (who had also heard the noise) with my .38 and .357. We exit tactically and quickly, all covered quite well. I rack the shotgun to scare the merde out of the guy (remember, the last thing I want is to SHOOT anyone!)

Now, we never encountered him. I'm thinking he realized he was making a ton of noise and cleared the scene as I was arming my compatriots and heading down the stairs.

But what kept me awake all night was the fact that I paid attention to cover rather than concealment. If he HAD been armed and willing to fight for some crazy reason (seriously, there are bad people out there that don't even know what happens when you shoot an animal with a gun), he could have easily hit me from the bushes. I paid attention to the cars, the berm, and the workshop, but I missed the bushes until precious seconds had rolled by.

Now.... if someone was back there, aggressive, and they didn't neutralize QUICKLY, I'm going to have to assume they might be the kind of crazy who would try to do major harm to me or my house-mates..... the situation would probably precipitate badly for them from that point forward. And I am trained enough in criminal law (not a lawyer, don't ask) to know just how much of a sticky wicket years of legal hassle can be....

but it's better than getting shot!

So yeah, I mean.... you don't start punching people in the throat, slicing them with your knife, or shooting them unless you're totally sure they're hostile AND dangerous. Everything else calls for humility, talk, and/or rapid exits. However, the situations in which that occurs aren't always justifiable to a jury -- and they are myriad in the real world. In the real-world I'm thinking about keeping alive and safe, period.

--Dr. Funkenstein

PS: I also understand the question here of staying in the house in cover and waiting for BG versus rushing him. I made the assumption then and there that he probably didn't want trouble and pushing it to him (or them) was best. Perhaps that wasn't the best decision.... it is somewhat reflective of one's mentality in a combat situation. Martial artists and trained shooters are going to get screwed by the legal system in the U.S.A. anyways. So I just deal with that and make the best decision I know in the current situation, based on my current training and mindset. Hopefully I live and learn. I did that day. But you know, I'm just some crazy guy on the net. Currently I don't even live in the states (three flags, man). Personally I would not listen to anything I say!
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Old December 16, 2010, 07:58 AM   #49
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I think it is a mistake to create a scenario where you are either unloading a loaded gun during a gunfight to swap ammo or making ammo decisions when a reload under fire is required. I think the foregoing is especially true when one is carrying a revolver, no offense wheel guys.

If you really, really, really want to have an alternate ammo available for shooting through cover, carry a BUG loaded as you see fit. Much easier to conduct a "New York reload."
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Old December 17, 2010, 07:39 PM   #50
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MP9

I don't even want to know what that stupid radio controlled bullet thing cost to develop or the cost per unit or the ammo itself.

I tried several things to penetrate a dumpster, why bother? Guy's in a dumpster it's time to leave. I don't know... you are working it too hard as far as what you are worrying about.
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