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Old December 9, 2010, 10:36 PM   #1
atlctyslkr
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Penetrating Dumpsters, Car Doors, ect

I'm considering replacing one of my speedloaders with FMJ to get greater penetration. I would hate to get caught in a situation where a BG had some great cover and I had no chance of hitting him.
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Old December 9, 2010, 10:57 PM   #2
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Ifr the BG jumps into a dumpster, what keeps you from simply exiting, 'Stage left' ?
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Old December 9, 2010, 11:14 PM   #3
MikeNice81
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Run Winchester PDX if you think you need barrier penetration in .38spl or .357mag. I think if you are shooting through anything the FBI wouldn't shoot through you might be asking for trouble.

You could go with Federal Hydra Shok as they tend to be a pretty good round with decent barrier penetration.

I doubt if you are in a situation where you are fighting for your life stopping to switch to FMJ is smart. If you have time to dump and reload evacuating will probably be smarter.
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Old December 9, 2010, 11:14 PM   #4
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as an armed civilian you probably aren't going to need to shoot through cover. if the BG is behind cover it might be a good opportunity to make an exit. leaving a gunfight early is better than sticking around to see who wins.
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Old December 9, 2010, 11:17 PM   #5
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Big Hoss wins!

BigHoss posted "leaving a gunfight early is better than sticking around to see who wins."


That's about as good as wisdom gets.
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Old December 9, 2010, 11:45 PM   #6
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This is what you need.. hahahhaa

No hiding place from new U.S. Army rifles that use radio-controlled smart bullets




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Old December 10, 2010, 12:46 AM   #7
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If I'm shooting someone who's behind solid cover, I'm not sure we're talking pistols any more. In any case, I doubt there would be all that much difference between a good, powerful self-defense loading and marginal-velocity FMJ in terms of barrier penetration.

Any shooting will likely have to be explained to a grand jury. One in which I shot through cover might be hard to sell as self-defense.
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Old December 10, 2010, 01:00 AM   #8
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After he jumps in the dumpster, walk down the street and if you find a garbage truck......


Yell " Hey, Hey, Hey you forgot this one", and then point.


If you don't see one, call 911
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Old December 10, 2010, 05:06 AM   #9
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+1 bigghoss
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Old December 10, 2010, 08:26 AM   #10
Skans
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For shooting bad guys hiding in dumpsters, you'll need to move up to steel core .308. You can find a PTR-91 pistol that can handle steel core.308 for about $1,100.
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Old December 10, 2010, 09:06 AM   #11
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Or get an NFA tag on a sawed off shotgun loaded with slugs.
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Old December 10, 2010, 11:32 AM   #12
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The only realistic barriers I can see you needing to penetrate during a legal shoot is automotive glass and car doors. And even then, I'm not worried about it to the point where I switch from my current Federal HST rounds to something with an FMJ.
I'm more worried about penetration and expansion through thick clothing than I am going through car doors.
And even then, to say worried would be an overstatement.

Just my unprofessional take on it...
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Old December 10, 2010, 12:25 PM   #13
Mike38
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Quote:
I'm more worried about penetration and expansion through thick clothing than I am going through car doors.


I wonder if thick clothing really slows a bullet down much? There is a TV show on one of those sportsman’s channels that is called “Personal Defense” or something like that. I’ve watched it for the past three or four weeks. It’s kind of cheesy, as most shows like that are, but a recent one was very interesting. They shot through various items one would find in a home, with a steel plate shaped like a silhouette behind the object of cover. A wall, a living room chair, a refrigerator, things like that. Firearms used where a .380, .38 special, 9mm, and a .45 acp. Even the little short barreled pocket .380 penetrated a refrigerator like it wasn’t even there. I doubt any of the above would penetrate a garbage dumpster, but walls, sofas, and even refrigerators were no match for them. Basically the moral of the story was, there isn’t a thing in your average household that will make suitable cover. Concealment yes, cover no. It would be best to stand and fight, keep shooting until your magazine is empty or you have won the fight.
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Old December 10, 2010, 01:10 PM   #14
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I carry an M1 Garand with blacktip ammo in my trunk, with a couple of tracers and some bluetip thrown in for good measure..

That's why the 45 auto get no love from leo departments, penetration on car doors suck. I can tell you that a 357 Sig will shoot through both doors of a wrecked 1960's Studebaker laying around on my uncle's farm, did it myself. I can also tell you that a FMJ 45 will bounce off an old stove we found in the desert in AZ, and a 9mm, 380 and M1 carbine will zip right through it.
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Old December 10, 2010, 01:35 PM   #15
KLRANGL
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Quote:
I wonder if thick clothing really slows a bullet down much?
From my understanding, it doesn't, it merely effects expansion (ie, turns a JHP into an FMJ, more so with older bullet designs).

Like I said, I'm not that worried about it
I much less concerned about bullet type than, say, what is considered a good shoot. And shooting someone behind a dumpster is probably not going to be a good shoot 99% of the time.

Quote:
It would be best to stand and fight, keep shooting until your magazine is empty or you have won the fight.
Well even some cover is better than no cover. Anything I can put in front of a bullets path, I will.
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Old December 10, 2010, 02:01 PM   #16
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Careful...

... I recently read a story (don't remember where) in which a guy was defending himself in is own house in a firefight. The BG hid behind the refridgerator and the GG shot through the refridgerator with a 12 guage slug killing the BG.

The GG is now trying to defend himself in criminal court against a murder charge and in civil court against a wrongful death lawsuit.

Moral of the story is, do not shoot through cover. I like the "Exit the gunfight early" strategy. Even if that means leaving your house (assuming the rest of the occupants are out and safe)!
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Old December 10, 2010, 02:11 PM   #17
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I haven't been attacked by a dumpster or a car door lately. So if the BG hides and tries to get away, maybe you should take it as a hint that he no longer poses a threat and back away (covering his last known location with your handgun, of course). If he starts shooting again, it's a pretty safe bet he will not want to fire from inside a dumpster (at least not twice ), so he will have to expose himself, and you can shoot at the exposed parts.
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Old December 10, 2010, 02:36 PM   #18
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"Know your target and what is beyond it."

If you can't see what your rounds are going to hit then you're doing it wrong.
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Old December 10, 2010, 02:43 PM   #19
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Don't most laws say that if you have the opportunity you are to flee but if you stick around and use deadly force then you're going to be in just as much trouble?
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Old December 10, 2010, 04:56 PM   #20
markj
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We have dumpsters out in the country, never thought a person would want to jump into one, "never know what you are gonna get" jumping into one of them, why not just set it on fire? roast bad guy yummy. Or roasted coyote bait.....


If a bad guy is jumping into that I will run fast and get the heck away.
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Old December 10, 2010, 05:44 PM   #21
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most ammo will go through a car a single door with little to no problem, anything more than that, and i would advise you to contemplate running away.
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Old December 10, 2010, 06:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
I wonder if thick clothing really slows a bullet down much?..........
That's not the issue. Many hollow point bullets are clogged with fabric and don't expand---causing more penetration. In effect, they become hardball.

DPX, HST, and GD expand, even through heavy clothing. Golden Saber is still rated good in this regard, but not as good as the above bullet technologies.
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Old December 11, 2010, 12:54 AM   #23
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Don't most laws say that if you have the opportunity you are to flee but if you stick around and use deadly force then you're going to be in just as much trouble?
Ah, yes. The "duty to flee" laws. Easterners.

No, most states do not say that. Yours does, but many do not. In many states, lawmakers recognize that if someone is trying to kill you, running away will get you shot in the back. If in doubt, take a CCW class, it is covered in the "use of force" section.
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Old December 11, 2010, 04:41 AM   #24
Lokpyrite
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Just because WE know rule 4 doesn't mean the BG does, I can EASILY see some scum bag getting behind a dumpster and firing over the top. And if you think a head shot is hard, try aiming for a hand.
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Old December 11, 2010, 12:32 PM   #25
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Don't most laws say that if you have the opportunity you are to flee but if you stick around and use deadly force then you're going to be in just as much trouble?
Maybe in NY, but not in most other places.

You may not continue using deadly force if the threat has gone away.

Hiding in the dumpster would remove them as a threat, but hiding behind an object and continuing to make threats means they are still a legit target.

If you decide to not go any further, make sure you keep a close eye on the guy.

He may still think you are a target (even as you move away).
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