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Old March 28, 2012, 04:49 PM   #1
Sponge14
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CCW Licensed in Oklahoma, Moved to TX

Hello all, I just spent all the money for my CCW in Oklahoma, then had a bit of a surprise move to TX. I am going to be a TX resident. Now, I know that TX and OK have a reciprocity agreement, but I can't find anything regarding the validity of my license. The OSBI website says that Oklahoma doesn't ISSUE out of state licenses, but nowhere in law, or even the FAQ on their site, has anything about what happens if I was issued as a Resident, but move. Does anyone have a definitive answer on this or can help me find my answer?
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Old March 28, 2012, 05:38 PM   #2
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I cannot say I have a definitive answer but I can say that often this stuff is not covered by the laws. The people writing these rules don't think of these unusual circumstance until it happens and then look dumbfounded when you bring it to their attention.

I would suggest getting a Texas license. Since you are no longer an Oklahoma resident, your Oklahoma permit may be considered invalid if they do not issue to nonresidents. Or the reciprocity with Texas may not be valid if you are not an Oklahoma resident anymore (some states will only allow reciprocity to permits issued to residents of the reciprocal state). Or you may be grandfathered in. Or no one will care or notice. CCW permits don't get much attention, compared to drivers licenses. Just can't say.

Once you have the Texas license, though, you'll be back to having reciprocity with your old state. If Oklahoma does not require you to surrender your permit when you move, I would just keep it and carry it with a Texas permit.

The other thing you could do is join a local Texas/OK firearms forum. They are likely to have a better answer than any law enforcement or permit issuing agency- which are often clueless when it comes to law...
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Old March 28, 2012, 06:33 PM   #3
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Only thing I can say to that is I did verify that TX has reciprocity agreements with states that issue out of state licenses, so I would be good with TX.
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Old March 29, 2012, 03:39 AM   #4
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I don't think you are on very solid ground trying to use your Oklahoma CCW once you have a Texas Drivers License.

Imagine how that could complicate your defense if you ever had to use your weapon.
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Old March 29, 2012, 09:07 AM   #5
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I don't think you are on very solid ground trying to use your Oklahoma CCW once you have a Texas Drivers License... Imagine how that could complicate your defense if you ever had to use your weapon.
I agree, but I suspect that most TX jurisdictions would probably forgive the discrepancy if you can prove that you have applied for a TX CHL, particularly if you've taken the class but you just haven't received the actual license yet.
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Old March 30, 2012, 10:58 AM   #6
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Quote:
SwampYankee I cannot say I have a definitive answer but I can say that often this stuff is not covered by the laws.
You either have a valid permit or you dont.

Quote:
CCW permits don't get much attention, compared to drivers licenses.
They do in Texas. State law requires notifying the officer that you have a CHL if stopped.


Quote:
carguychris
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think you are on very solid ground trying to use your Oklahoma CCW once you have a Texas Drivers License... Imagine how that could complicate your defense if you ever had to use your weapon.
I agree, but I suspect that most TX jurisdictions would probably forgive the discrepancy if you can prove that you have applied for a TX CHL, particularly if you've taken the class but you just haven't received the actual license yet.
Are you willing to bet your right to possess firearms on that?

If the OP's Oklahoma permit is invalid once he is no longer a resident of Oklahoma......it doesn't matter if he can prove he applied for a Texas CHL.

If he gets caught carrying a concealed firearm without a valid permit he will be arrested.
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Old March 30, 2012, 11:05 AM   #7
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Actually Oklahoma's SDA says you have a certain amount of time to have get a new one due to change of address. And if you are not in Oklahoma then I am sure yours would not be valid.
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Old March 30, 2012, 05:13 PM   #8
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponge14
Only thing I can say to that is I did verify that TX has reciprocity agreements with states that issue out of state licenses, so I would be good with TX.
How do you figure? You posted previously that OK does NOT issue out-of-state licenses. Ergo, they issue only to OK residents. Once you relocate to Texas you are a resident of Texas and not Oklahoma, so your OK license is invalid.
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Old April 1, 2012, 06:35 AM   #9
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Quote:
CCW permits don't get much attention, compared to drivers licenses.
They do in Texas. State law requires notifying the officer that you have a CHL if stopped.
You miss the point. Yeah, cops everywhere pay attention to armed citizens. However, carry permits get very little attention by the general public and state legislatures. And it's more broad than just the permit. The laws regarding motor vehicles and the accompanying judicial precedents are far more extensive than those regarding concealed carry. Everyone drives and all the stupid things people can do with cars are done every day. Only a small portion of people carry and generally fewer stupid things are done with those firearms. Consequently, firearms law is typically less refined.

Quote:
You either have a valid permit or you dont.
That is correct. But determining whether your OK permit is valid once you leave OK does not appear to be a line item in the statutes. Unless there is no case history in the courts or a line item in the statutes, it is up to the interpretation of whoever determines to arrest and prosecute you. If the OP had a statute to reference, he would not have asked the question.

Quote:
If the OP's Oklahoma permit is invalid once he is no longer a resident of Oklahoma.
You're missing the point again. He wants to know if this is true. The OP does not know. Unless you have some magical insight, neither do you.

Quote:
Actually Oklahoma's SDA says you have a certain amount of time to have get a new one due to change of address. And if you are not in Oklahoma then I am sure yours would not be valid.
Well, since you're a lawyer specializing in OK firearms policy, we're all better informed now. Because you'e "sure".

Quote:
You posted previously that OK does NOT issue out-of-state licenses. Ergo, they issue only to OK residents. Once you relocate to Texas you are a resident of Texas and not Oklahoma, so your OK license is invalid.
But once the permit is issued, the act has been undertaken. I could argue that it was "issued" to an OK resident and now possessed by a non-resident. Semantics cuts both ways.

There are a lot of pointless comments here. The OP asked a question. I, among others, gave nebulous advice. No one has yet pointed to the law. In general, we all *think* his OK permit is now invalid. But we can only guess. He could call up the state attorney general for OK and find out this has happened before and they grandfather people in until the permit expires. But we all suspect not. But our suspicion is just that. No one here has come up with the answer.
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Old April 1, 2012, 08:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
SwampYankee


There are a lot of pointless comments here. The OP asked a question. I, among others, gave nebulous advice. No one has yet pointed to the law. In general, we all *think* his OK permit is now invalid. But we can only guess. He could call up the state attorney general for OK and find out this has happened before and they grandfather people in until the permit expires. But we all suspect not. But our suspicion is just that. No one here has come up with the answer.
Then maybe the OP should have called or emailed OSBI to find out instead of asking a forum legal questions.
Quote:
Well, since you're a lawyer specializing in OK firearms policy, we're all better informed now. Because you'e "sure".
As the OP posted The OSBI website says that Oklahoma doesn't ISSUE out of state licenses. And seeing how his CCW has to have the same address as to where he is living.
Quote:
TITLE 21 § 1290.13 AUTOMATIC LISTING OF LICENSES
The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation shall maintain an automated listing of all persons issued a concealed handgun license in this state pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1 et seq. of this title, and all subsequent suspended or revoked licenses. Information from the automated listing shall only be available to a law enforcement officer or law enforcement agency upon request for law enforcement purposes. The Bureau shall also maintain for each applicant the original application or a copy of the original application form and any subsequent renewal application forms together with the photographs, fingerprints and other pertinent information on the applicant which shall be confidential, except to law enforcement officers or law enforcement agencies in the performance of their duties. To facilitate the Bureau’s administration of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, all licensees shall maintain a current mailing address where the licensee may receive certified mail. The licensee shall within thirty (30) days of a change of name or address inform the Bureau of such change.
So yes he would have to update his CCW with a new address.
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Old April 1, 2012, 10:41 AM   #11
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Are you willing to bet your right to possess firearms on that?
Actually, no.

In 20/20 hindsight, that was one of the more stupid things I've posted.
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Old April 2, 2012, 02:43 PM   #12
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As soon as you become a resident of another state your reciprocity most likely ends just like your permit ends.

Unlike driver's ;licenses that states have policies about how long you have to change to the new state, carry permits are not at this level of reciprocity.

You move, it most likely dies.

But you can always pick up a charge for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit and see how that goes for you.

A new permit should be much less expensive.
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Old April 3, 2012, 07:17 AM   #13
SwampYankee
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So yes he would have to update his CCW with a new address.
Sigh. I don't know why I continue to bother but the question is not whether he would have to update his address. The question is whether once he does, which is a given, OK would allow him to keep it as a Texas resident. Since this is not addressed in the law, it is up to the issuing agency. Whoever is in charge of that agency has the ability to make policy not explicitly addressed in the law. If the law said, "once a permittee is no longer a resident, they must surrender their permit", the issue issue would be settled. This language does not exist. In fact, it does not exist in most states.

So the answer is still not forthcoming and the OP should definitely contact the Oklahoma authorities and begin the process to get a Texas CCW.

Or he could just send in the change of address and see what OK does. They may send him a nice little letter saying his permit is revoked... which will then be his answer.
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Old April 3, 2012, 07:29 AM   #14
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Its rather simple. If OP becomes a Texan, he must have a CCW issued by Texas. Reciprocity applies to visitors and not residents.

Now, if OP maintains his legal residence in OK and goes home for the weekend (or crosses the border everyday to go to work), I'd argue that OP is an Okie who is employed in Texas and commutes daily. However, this does not seem to be the case.

Last, I doubt if OK will license out of staters to have an OK CCW. A jurisdiction in CA (Locke) was issuing CCWs for a price. It was the town's way of fundraising. That didn't go over very well and once caught, the town had to abandon that novel practice of revenue generation.
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Old April 3, 2012, 07:57 PM   #15
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Last, I doubt if OK will license out of staters to have an OK CCW.
Of course they won't license out-of-staters. It is clear that they do not give nonresident licenses. The question is whether they revoke a license from a former resident. Likely they will but not addressed by the law.
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Old April 3, 2012, 08:08 PM   #16
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Here in WA it doesn't matter, put in your change of address and your WA CPL is still good, anywhere that it is recognized, and always in WA.

It is possible that OK does not ISSUE an out of state permit, but that does not necessarily mean that you OK CPL is invalid once you move. Even a NY permit is valid after you move out of state with teh change of address and NY does not issue out of state permits either..

Anyway, the OK SDA statute does not state that the permit become invalid, and OK law is what we need to concentrate on as TX does acknowledge non-resident out of state permits so, TX is not the problem.

IMHO: I would send in a change of address to OK and see what happens...bet they just send an updated permit...Any takers? There is nothing in the SDA that says they cannot/should not.
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Old April 3, 2012, 08:38 PM   #17
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Finally, someone who gets it... Thanks for talking sense hermannr
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Old April 4, 2012, 03:01 PM   #18
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Thanks for talking sense hermannr
Except for he failed to tell you under what situation the NY licecnse remains valid.

In NY for carry?
That would depend solely on NY law.

The OP wants to know if Texas will recognize his OK permit when he is now a resident of Texas.

That is likely to depend on BOTH states law's.

OK can void the permit since he is no longer a resident.

TX can refuse to recognize an out of state permit presented by what os now a Texas resident.

You can try asking the Attorneys General of each state what they think (they may not bother answering though since they do NOT owe you legal advice), try reading the statutes yourself (and maybe any case law you can find), or pay an attorney to check the statutes and maybe ask the AGs for an opinion.

An AG is far more likely to respond to another attorney than a citizen.
The attorney will understand how to word the question as an ambiguity that needs an answer.

+

Last edited by brickeyee; April 5, 2012 at 01:45 PM.
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Old April 4, 2012, 08:44 PM   #19
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An AG is far more likely to respond to another attorney than a citizen.
Our AG is quite active with the society. I like him as our AG and would vote for him again. I called his office on a question regarding CCW that nobody (LEO, DA and lawyers I spoke with) could answer. I got him - not his secretary or voice mail. I was rather surprised but in any case I asked him the question and he chuckled a bit then answered. I then asked why he chuckled and he said I was the fourth person in as many days to ask him the same question...

Anyway I agree its a good idea to get in touch with the DOJ of both OK and TX and find out just what the situation will be.
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Old April 4, 2012, 09:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by hermannr
Even a NY permit is valid after you move out of state with teh change of address and NY does not issue out of state permits either..
And we know this to be true ... how?

Considering that the state is New York, this seems extremely UNlikely. It's easy to make the statement, but what documentation do you have to support the statement?
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Old April 5, 2012, 08:53 AM   #21
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Quote:
SwampYankee
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
CCW permits don't get much attention, compared to drivers licenses.
They do in Texas. State law requires notifying the officer that you have a CHL if stopped.
You miss the point. Yeah, cops everywhere pay attention to armed citizens. However, carry permits get very little attention by the general public and state legislatures.
Sorry, YOU just don't "get it".......I'll repeat. IN TEXAS, OUR legislature spent quite a bit of "attention" on the issue of concealed handgun licensing and has done so at each legislative session.........and its front page news. Our last session dealt with campus carry and employer parking lot carry. The Texas State Rifle Association has an excellent lobbyist in Alice Tripp.

Funny, not a single news article regarding drivers licenses.

Quote:
And it's more broad than just the permit. The laws regarding motor vehicles and the accompanying judicial precedents are far more extensive than those regarding concealed carry. Everyone drives and all the stupid things people can do with cars are done every day. Only a small portion of people carry and generally fewer stupid things are done with those firearms. Consequently, firearms law is typically less refined.
While firearms law in YOUR state may be "less refined" it most certainly is not in many states......spend a little time reading the California regulations if you want a little "refinement".

Texas firearm laws are a very complex assortment of regulations from the criminal, family, health & safety and other sections of state law. Reading only a portion does not give you.


Quote:
SwampYankee
Quote:
Quote:
Last, I doubt if OK will license out of staters to have an OK CCW.
Of course they won't license out-of-staters. It is clear that they do not give nonresident licenses. The question is whether they revoke a license from a former resident. Likely they will but not addressed by the law.
Sorry, you don't "get this" either.

Oklahoma doesn't have jurisdiction. A TEXAS police officer, a TEXAS DA, a TEXAS jury, and a TEXAS judge will decide if a TEXAS resident holding an Oklahoma permit is carrying legally while in Texas.
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Old April 5, 2012, 09:22 AM   #22
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This comes up at times on this forum, just involving other states each time...

Quote:
SwampYankee

Last, I doubt if OK will license out of staters to have an OK CCW.

Of course they won't license out-of-staters. It is clear that they do not give nonresident licenses. The question is whether they revoke a license from a former resident. Likely they will but not addressed by the law.

Quote:
Oklahoma doesn't have jurisdiction. A TEXAS police officer, a TEXAS DA, a TEXAS jury, and a TEXAS judge will decide if a TEXAS resident holding an Oklahoma permit is carrying legally while in Texas.
I have to agree with dogtown_tom with this, but with one typical exception. First, OK does not issue a non-resident permit to the best of my knowledge, so if you move out of state, OK would have jurisdiction to either revoke your permit, and/or possibly charge you for something similar to failure to notify change of address or something similar. Just because you move out of state does not keep them from filing a charge or revoking your permit due to address change, or residence status.

While I know you want to be able to carry until you get your TX permit, I would advise you to start the process for your TX permit as soon as you are eligible.

Trying to stretch the law to meet your needs, or look for a grey area to sneak by is not the proper thing to do.
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Old April 5, 2012, 11:10 AM   #23
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one key issue; you have to be a resident of Texas for six months before you can apply for a CHL ... And to correct something Dogtown said, Texas law doesn't require that you tell an office you are a CHL holder if you are NOT armed. If you're carrying, you must advise .... your CHL comes up on a Texas officer's computer screen when he runs your DL in any case ...
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Old April 5, 2012, 11:27 AM   #24
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one key issue; you have to be a resident of Texas for six months before you can apply for a CHL
While I can understand the impatience, it is best to follow the law.

Trying to get by with an out of state, resident only carry permit, until you obtain your permit in TX would not be the wise move to me.
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Old April 5, 2012, 12:09 PM   #25
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Check the laws of both states. I would make no assumptions.

In my case, my old GA permit is no longer valid, since I moved and GA does not do non-resident permits. OTOH, my older FL permit is fine until this September. I notified FL authorities when I moved to GA, and was told my permit would automatically become non-resident, with no need to change the physical card.

Meanwhile, I've moved from GA to MO. I've already done the course, and been fingerprinted and initiated paperwork at my local Sheriff's Department. But MO recognizes non-resident permits, and my FL is valid for now while I wait for the MO to arrive.

Last I looked, PA also recognizes non-res permits in PA resident hands, which is a way for Philadelphia residents to bypass the "City of the First Class" exemption the city won from PA's "shall-issue."
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