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Old December 3, 2010, 03:02 PM   #1
mrgoodwrench76
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Mosin Experience?

I am considering removing the bayonette lug from an M44. By removing, I mean : Remove front sight, cut lug off, refinish and reinstall. I have read several statements suggesting that removing the lug would effect accuracy and barrel harmonics. Even shooting with bayonet closed would do so as these rifles were meant to be fired with the bayonet extended. I can understand how this lug and bayonet would effect harmonics but wouldn't the lug being there in the first place be an adverse effect in itself? Wouldn't removing the lug actually improve harmonics? And wouldn't this also result in a simple change in POA? I was hoping someone here had some actual experience on the matter.
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Old December 3, 2010, 03:13 PM   #2
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Beleve it or not the sights are set to take in account the weight in the muzzle. Many rifles are sporterized, with a scope mounted.
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Old December 3, 2010, 05:39 PM   #3
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I would assume the sights are in fact set accordingly to the extra weight, otherwise the rifles would have never been effective. I am also aware that many of these rifles are sporterized. I was in no way suspecting that my idea was original and in fact, hoping otherwise. Hence the questions directed at people with experience in the matter.
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Old December 3, 2010, 07:02 PM   #4
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Surely someone out there has done something similar to this. Or is the 'its not accurate if you dont extend the bayonet' statement a myth?
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Old December 3, 2010, 08:30 PM   #5
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I found that the point of impact was about one foot to the left with the bayonet folded and the groups were strung horizontally. It shot to point-of-aim with the bayonet extended. I then removed the bayonet but left the lug on and it still shot to the point-of-aim. I don't think that removing the bayonet lug would change anything.

Post up your results if you cut off the lug.
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Old December 3, 2010, 08:36 PM   #6
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Just finished modifying the front sight and will re-install it later on this evening. I have a few extra's so if this dosn't turn out well, shy of my time, there's really no loss. I hope to test fire it sometime over the weekend.

At what yardage were the patterns you mentioned and which model and ammo type? I will post pictures of the finished product and the test fire results.
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Old December 3, 2010, 08:45 PM   #7
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Distance was 100 yards. Any type of ammo tested would go way left.
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Old December 4, 2010, 02:24 AM   #8
chris in va
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Probably better off getting an M38. Too bad you're in AR, I'm trying to sell mine.
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Old December 4, 2010, 02:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Wouldn't removing the lug actually improve harmonics?
Bull barrels reduce barrel harmonic effect by stiffening the barrel. Removing parts of parts will not reduce or "improve" harmonics, they may simply change them to some degree.

If you've developed a load for the rifle, or have found ammo that shoots well in it, you may need to redevelop your load or research new ammo that it likes... But who knows, it might change the harmonics in such a way as to make it shoot better with what you already use.

Good luck!
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Old December 4, 2010, 05:19 AM   #10
AKsRul.e
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"I have read several statements suggesting that removing the lug would effect accuracy and barrel harmonics."

I see no point in doing this to a military grade rifle from which you will likely be shooting surplus ammo.

Now if you were completely rebuilding and sporterizing it
that and other mods might be worthwhile.
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Old December 4, 2010, 10:11 AM   #11
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Chris

I have a 38, 2 Finn 39's, 3 44's, and a 91/30, not including the 44 I'm modifying along with a large amount of 'spare parts'. I'm only doing this because this particular 44 was pretty beat up when I got it. That and I have an incredible amount of free time right now. Despite its exterior problems, the bore looks excellent and I think it has potential. Outside of this 44, the rest are in excellent condition with original markings. This one was reworked by R Guns in Carpentersville Ill. according to the stamp on the side. I cant speak for everyone, but this makes it less valuable to me from a collectors standpoint, hence the current project.

Win 94

From everything that I have read (and we all know EVERYTHING you read on the net is true ) uniformity is key for harmonics in general. If this is true, then wouldn't a more uniform barrel allow a more even flow of harmonics? Ever used a tuning fork? Wack it on something and listen. Now stick your finger on the end of one of the forks (simulating the effects of a big heavy lug on the end of a barrel) and notice the difference in sound.

Yes, a bull barrel is less affected by harmonics due to the extra weight and thickness, of this I am well aware.

AksRul.e

If you see no point in doing this then by all means, DONT do it. I also see no point in posting on something you obviously have no experience with nor offer anything posative to the subject at hand. Since aparantly this makes all the difference, I have made many other modifications to the sock, sights, barrel crown, and trigger and will more than likely (since I have a bunch of brass, bullets, and dies for the 54R) load rounds tailored to this rifle. Hope that makes you feel better.

I will admit I have no idea of what the outcome will be and there is a very good chance I am totally wrong about all of this. One thing I know for sure, after I'm done, my words on the matter will no longer be an opinion.
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Old December 4, 2010, 07:32 PM   #12
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i cut the lug off my hungarian M-44 and it actually shoots better than it did with it on. i wish i hadnt done it but cant do anything about it now.
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Old December 5, 2010, 02:16 AM   #13
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As I said before, I have a bunch of parts, several front sight assemblies with the lug in tact if your interested. PM me.

Just curious, if it shoots better now, why would you regret doing so?
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Old December 5, 2010, 02:46 AM   #14
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One missing part can make milsurps much harder to sell, and it is surprising how many otherwise nice milsurps ("to be kept forever") find their
way -not many years later- to gun shows and shops.
My gun show buddies never give a second glance to altered milsurps, and these guys have a large number of really nice Polish/Finnish etc MNs, Mausers, SVT-40s, some Enfields ('in the wrap') etc.

Certain family members who inherit our guns, have no interest, and need money quickly might be forced to sell them very cheaply to pawn shops etc.
Many decisions that we make are permanent, and freedom allows us to make our own decisions.

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Old December 5, 2010, 09:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
One missing part can make milsurps much harder to sell
Yeah, and it might affect the value of that $69 rifle too!
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Old December 5, 2010, 09:41 AM   #16
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Yeah, and it might affect the value of that $69 rifle too!
Laugh all you want. But there was a time where people thought nothing of hacking up aircooled VWs and changing them into bajas or street customs. Now, you have to pay several thousand dollars for ones generally speaking to be in stock form. Same goes for milsurps. Mosins are a dime a dozen now. But they're going to end up in the same boat in the coming years quicker than you think due to so many of them being altered. What is convenient for us today to find a quality rifle while on a tight budget won't be for our next generation of young shooters trying to get into firearms collecting.

With that, it's a free country. Whatever one decides to do with their rifle is their business and their choice. But there's consequences for everything...
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Old December 5, 2010, 10:08 AM   #17
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Yeah, and it might affect the value of that $69 rifle too!
Use to say the same thing about 1903's and 1911A1's too.
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Old December 5, 2010, 10:37 AM   #18
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Cut the darn thing off. I did to my Chinese type 53 mosin carbine, just had to adjust the sights slightly when done. Now I'm thinking of cutting off the front sight and having the barrel ported and recrowned.

I paid $50 for mine at a pawn shop. I'm not all too concerned about the collectible value or about altering the gun.
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Old December 5, 2010, 11:50 AM   #19
mrgoodwrench76
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Ignition,Tuttle

You guys figured out my master plan. I'm modifying every one I can get my hands on in hopes to make my originals worth a fortune. I hope to gain enough to aid my retirement and put my child through collage.
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Last edited by Shane Tuttle; December 8, 2010 at 12:15 AM. Reason: FINAL and ONLY EDIT
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Old December 5, 2010, 02:17 PM   #20
the rifleer
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The bayonet does effect the POI, but does not actually effect the accuracy of the rifle.
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Old December 6, 2010, 04:19 AM   #21
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Quote:
From everything that I have read (and we all know EVERYTHING you read on the net is true ) uniformity is key for harmonics in general.
"Key" to what?
Hang a skunk off the end of my barrel; I'll develop a load that shoots just as well as it does now.

Quote:
If this is true, then wouldn't a more uniform barrel allow a more even flow of harmonics?
No. Vibrations are just that, vibrations. Are you able to calculate the vibrations on a slide rule with the "a more uniform barrel" rendering load development irrelevant?

As I said, a change in anything barrel related will "simply change [harmonics] to some degree." Whereas, if you have developed a load or found ammo that shoots well, you may need to redevelop or research the ammo for it.

Quote:
Ever used a tuning fork? Wack it on something and listen. Now stick your finger on the end of one of the forks (simulating the effects of a big heavy lug on the end of a barrel) and notice the difference in sound.
Almost like it has, "simply change [harmonics] to some degree."
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Old December 6, 2010, 04:25 AM   #22
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Have to agree with Tuttle,might be a $69 rifle now but 20 years from now?I cringe every time i see a swede 96 or 38 that someone sporterized,or a 1903 with a bright blue finish,markings half removed,in a Fajen stock.If its a beater made of Frankenstein parts,maybe.
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Old December 6, 2010, 11:13 AM   #23
mrgoodwrench76
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Win 94

"Key" to what?

Harmonics in general as I stated above......not sure I understand your question.

My post really has nothing to do with load developement as I dont plan to load any tailored rounds for the rifle until the modifications are complete. Overall, I just dont like the useless, ugly lug hanging from the end of my barrel although I'd take that over a skunk :barf:. Maybe 'harmonics' wasn't the best term to describe my concerns. In most discussions of harmonics I've read, people also include barrel whip, pressure wave, and barrel timing in conjunction with this term. Wouldn't having extra weight on the end of the barrel induce greater whip? Whip equalling loss in accuracy?
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Old December 6, 2010, 11:24 AM   #24
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Quote:
Wouldn't having extra weight on the end of the barrel induce greater whip? Whip equalling loss in accuracy?
Not necessarily. Ever see barrel weights on pistols & rifles.

You can't get away from WHIP, its there whether you know it or not. Weights often dampen it.

Whip isn't bad if it's consistent.
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Old December 6, 2010, 11:24 AM   #25
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I bought an extra front sight assy for my m-44 and cut the bayonette ears off and ground them down to the contour of the sight. I removed the front sight pin and replaced it with a longer one, then polished and cold blued the assy. After re-installing, I sighted in the rifle at 100yds and installed the sight hood. The grouping did not seem to change at all, but at least I am no longer high and to the left.
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