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Old December 3, 2010, 10:30 AM   #1
H1N1
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FBI "delay" + Gun Shop keeping money

Hi, I recently went to purchase a shotgun at a loca gun store and was that there was a delay being put on the relase of the weapon. I have learned that this is often normal procedure. But here is where it gets weird:

The gun shop tells me that th gun is mine of the FBI does not call back in a certain a,not of days. Low and behold, that day comes and I call and ask the shop if I can pluck up the gun as they said I could:

The gun store owner decides to call the FBI again (for what reason I do not know), and the FBI tells them that they are "investigating" and not to release the gun.

I then ask the gun shop for my 500.00 back and he says he is not doing anything until the FBI gets back to them.

What is this?

I am almost certain that I have never been convicted of a felony. My ex was having me bogusly arrested repeatedly but I was never convicted. All the charges were repeatedly thrown out.

Don't I have the right to get my money back?

*** does it mean that I am being "investigated"?

The gun shop owner even went as far to state that maybe the FBI is preparing to either arrest me or charge me with something.

I don't what to sound like a conspiracy guy here but could it have anything to do with the farcy that I am a parental rights advocate and have protested about the mistreatment of fathers after divorce?

Damn, I want my money back.....

What do you guys (gals) think?
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Old December 3, 2010, 10:58 AM   #2
Skans
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I believe all dealers need to call in the background check even if you have a carry permit. The carry permit gets you out of the waiting period if your state has one.
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Old December 3, 2010, 10:59 AM   #3
Doyle
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It isn't the FBI that is doing the hold. Each state runs its own check system. If you get denied, you file an appeal in which they have to tell you exactly why it was denied. If the information is erroneous then you have the right to get it cleaned up.

There are many people that have names that match up with bad guys. That will cause them to always get delayed or even denied outright. If you find yourself in that position and you plan on doing lots of purchases you can apply for a unique identifyer number that they will use instead of your name.
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Old December 3, 2010, 11:36 AM   #4
H1N1
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Background check

Skans,

Thanks for replying. I am a firm believer in a background check but my issue lies with the fact that the gun dealer went against everything he stated.

He first told me that if the FBI did not call back in a certain amount of time that the gun was mine. This turned out to be a lie.

The dealer is now refusing to release my money and the gun!

On another note, the gun in question is a

Mossberg 500
12 gauge
20" BBL
8 Shot
with a recoil reduction grip....

Any thoughts or opinions on the gun?
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Old December 3, 2010, 11:42 AM   #5
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H1N1
Not going to ask you where you are from as I saw this identical incident happen yesterday, at a local gun store. In fact, the fella under review, just got back from Irag. The clerk commented that this happens all the time and not to worry about it for now. Good luck and give it time to play out. I'm sure these folks have more delay excuses than you or I could understand or appreciate. ....


Be Safe !!!
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Old December 3, 2010, 11:44 AM   #6
H1N1
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Reply to Tyme...DV Stats

Tyme,

I do a lot of work with family court related matters and there is a concerted effort to ensure that no valid statistics are recorded due to the fact that it will highlight the fact that many restraining orders are being improperly granted with the sole purpose of gaining an advantage in court.

With the passing of the VAWA (Violence Against Womens Act), the lws became so vague in regards to what constituted a violation of domestic violence, that it became law that someone could be arrested because they "felt" threatened.

Not that they were actually threatened or in harms way, but instead "felt" threatened.

So many people were being falsely arrested here in New York that groups sought the very statistics that you are asking for through the Freedom of Information Act.

Not surprisingly:
  • There are no records of how many arrests occurred from restraining orders that ended up being tossed
There are no stats regarding the number of order of protections issued

If there was any documentation that showed that almost 75% of the arrests
were the result of bogus charges, the DV industry and the judges would be called out. That is a 40 Billion dollar a year industry which does not want that to happen.
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Old December 3, 2010, 11:50 AM   #7
divil
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Quote:
I believe all dealers need to call in the background check even if you have a carry permit. The carry permit gets you out of the waiting period if your state has one.
Not true - some states allow the dealer to waive the background check if you have a CCW. I'm not sure how it works legally since the background check is mandated by federal law, but my local dealer told me he would waive the NICS check if I had the CCW, and we have no waiting period or anything like that in my state.

I always get delayed because I'm a foreigner, but my dealer never asks for the money until the transfer gets approved. I would never pay up front like that because you have no way of knowing how long the delay will be. Legally they may be able to transfer the gun after 3 days, but my dealer is either not aware of that, or is unwilling to do it (they are under no obligations whatsoever), so my delays could theoretically be forever.

I am pretty sure the dealer has to give you your money back since you have not received the product you paid for.
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Old December 3, 2010, 11:51 AM   #8
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FBI, I think you said NY right? Don't push it- the gun shop guy doesn't know what the deal is either, so its all speculative. When you do talk again try and ask about Definate timelines good or bad, so you can know what to expect. I wouldn't want to wait 'forever' either, especially after you waited the original time.

I was wondering if the guy he called that day was a regular contact that helped him or just some joe schmo who happened to answer the phone that day when he said not to sell it. I think you'll be ok, but I can understand the anxiety and/or impatience you feel everyday that you're at a standstill on this. Please keep us posted.
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:02 PM   #9
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H1N1,

Try not to jump to conclusions, but I can understand your anxiety(I responded to your recent thread also). They may just have the right to put it on hold for another amount of time by NY's and/or federal laws, and they may have chosen to do this for whatever reason. It will still go thru if and when nothing else 'comes back' or you have legally jumped thru the hoops(as in they will have to ^&*# or get off the pot eventually). I Know for a Fact others on this forum will have better, more concrete advice about this issue(s), but thats my two cents.
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:08 PM   #10
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H1N1, your dealer sounds to be pulling something fishy, like hoping you get arrested and he gets to keep 500$, hope you have a receipt, I'd not buy the gun or anything else from him ever.

just my .02

LH2 if your ex had cut you she would have been arrested, next time try to have only defensive wounds on yourself, and DON"T TOUCH HER.

also just my .02

RosaMariTB, the fact your here proves your not one of "those women" I on the other hand was married to one of "those women" I lost track of the number of times she hit me or tried to punch me just to try and get me to hit her so she could have me arrested, it didn't work I was raised better than that.
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:14 PM   #11
Skans
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Quote:
Not true - some states allow the dealer to waive the background check if you have a CCW. I'm not sure how it works legally since the background check is mandated by federal law, but my local dealer told me he would waive the NICS check if I had the CCW, and we have no waiting period or anything like that in my state.
It must be a state by state thing.

H1N1, I wish I could give you some information on the shotgun, but I have no experience with that model
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:16 PM   #12
thesheepdog
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My state skips the BG check since I have my CHL. I haven't ever had an issue with delay's.
My only guess is that someone else (convicted felon) has a name and information very similar to you, and that's why the FBI is being slow.

The dealer sounds fishy and I would be on high alert for some conspiracy.
A gun dealer is there to make money, and if you've paid and the FBI isn't approving you, he'll come out with some extra money.
I suggest you wait a a couple more days, and see what happens. If you don't get approved, demand your money.
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:18 PM   #13
divil
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Quote:
My only guess is that someone else (convicted felon) has a name and information very similar to you, and that's why the FBI is being slow.
You should always opt to put your social security number on the form for this very reason.
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:21 PM   #14
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I agree Divil. The social security # is optional and your right, but it is the best, identfying number to have on the paperwork while it collects cobwebs in wherever that "safe" is. The number protects you.
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:27 PM   #15
hogdogs
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Didn't the Gun Dealer VIOLATE FEDERAL LAW by SELLING a gun to a person that hasn't yet passed a BACK GROUND check?

He has sold the gun, not taken a deposit... He basically admits to selling the firearm by not handing over the money... Most gun dealers don't offer REFUNDS on gun purchases...

My local dealer and walmart will not take my money until I am cleared to PURCHASE...

Brent
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:33 PM   #16
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this dealer is required by law to return the funds if OP doesn't receive the weapon - I thought - please let me know if I am wrong here. Mainly as well, can said dealer keep the funds if the OP is indeed arrested, or can OP be arrested while coming back to get the firearm after the dealer calls him for rouse pickup? I apologize if I am barking up the wrong tree here; I am not too good with conspiracy theories. That "Jesse Ventura Conspircay Theory" show about Oswalt in the CIA and Kennedy's assassination was BADASS though!!
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:54 PM   #17
divil
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Quote:
Didn't the Gun Dealer VIOLATE FEDERAL LAW by SELLING a gun to a person that hasn't yet passed a BACK GROUND check?
I don't think so:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...fr478.101.pdf:
Quote:
§ 478.102 Sales or deliveries of firearms
on and after November 30,
1998.
(a) Background check. Except as provided
in paragraph (d) of this section, a
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer (the licensee)
shall not sell, deliver, or transfer a
firearm to any other person who is not
licensed under this part unless the licensee
meets the following requirements:
(1) Before the completion of the
transfer
, the licensee has contacted
NICS;
(2)(i) NICS informs the licensee that
it has no information that receipt of
the firearm by the transferee would be
in violation of Federal or State law
(Emphasis added by me)

Although the word "sell" is used in the first paragraph, the first condition clearly applies to the transfer, not the sale.
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Old December 3, 2010, 01:01 PM   #18
Tom Servo
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Quote:
The gun shop owner even went as far to state that maybe the FBI is preparing to either arrest me or charge me with something.
I don't know how he would know that. The NICS system does not tell the dealer why a purchase is delayed or denied.

Quote:
It isn't the FBI that is doing the hold. Each state runs its own check system.
It varies from state to state, but not all states do the check. In some states, it's just an FBI check.

What date was the check first called in? If there's not a response after three business days, the dealer is clear to release the firearm. There's a FAQ on the process here.
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Old December 3, 2010, 01:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
What date was the check first called in? If there's not a response after three business days, the dealer is clear to release the firearm. There's a FAQ on the process here.
Down at the bottom of that page there is this statement:

"The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 allows three business days to obtain this information before a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) can transfer a firearm. The FFL is not prohibited from transferring the firearm after three business days have passed; however, the FFL is not required to transfer the firearm."

It is the dealer's discretion. He was acting within reason to call back, although I would also be perturbed if I were the OP.

To the OP- hang tight. If there is no issue you should get the ok. I can also understand the dealer not wanting to give you your money back, because he would want you to come back for the gun if given the ok.

If it turns out that you get denied I cannot for any reason see the dealer refusing to give you your money back.

One other thing- you mentioned an ex. If there were repeated arrests they may just be taking extra time to be sure there were in fact no prohibiting domestic factors. That's a biggie- it can be a misdemeanor conviction in that case.

Last edited by AH.74; December 3, 2010 at 01:53 PM.
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Old December 3, 2010, 01:59 PM   #20
Mike Irwin
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H1N1,

Actually, if this happens again, please do NOT repost your thread. Simply PM a moderator and ask that your new posts and responses to it be split out of the old thread into a new one as I have done.
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Old December 3, 2010, 03:39 PM   #21
divil
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Quote:
The gun shop owner even went as far to state that maybe the FBI is preparing to either arrest me or charge me with something.
I missed that comment before...anyway it sounds like a load of nonsense to me. I don't think it's a crime to attempt to buy a gun from an FFL even if you turn out to be prohibited. I believe it's only a crime if the transfer of the gun actually takes place. Does anyone know this for sure?
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Old December 3, 2010, 05:28 PM   #22
steveno
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when I worked at Cabela's no money changed hands until the background check was complete. so why give the dealer your money first?
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Old December 3, 2010, 06:55 PM   #23
Shadi Khalil
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Quote:
H1N1, I wish I could give you some information on the shotgun, but I have no experience with that model
I can because I have the same shotgun, minus the recoil reduction grip. It's a great shotgun and all but $500 seems a bit steep. I think my wife paid a bit over $300 OTD for mine. I guess it varies by state but just thought I'd let you know considering you already feel the dealer is sketchy.
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Old December 3, 2010, 07:00 PM   #24
k in AR
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Every firearm dealer I have done business with here in Arkansas would never take a penny until you are approved. They might call the police if you came back a felon... but other than that, approved = sale, delay = come back & pay / pick up when approved, deny = thanks for stoping by but "no way".
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Old December 3, 2010, 08:07 PM   #25
5.56RifleGuy
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In Florida if you get a conditional non approval for a gun purchase they have to come back with a definative answer in a few days. They give you a call back date and if you call back and they dont give you a denial you can release the firearm to the person in question.

HOWEVER, if it comes back as a denial afterwords, the police can go take the gun from the person in question.
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