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Old December 1, 2010, 01:46 PM   #26
Gbro
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Quote:
And to think this happened in a place called Brainerd!!!
No, the defendant, Kevin Thomas McCormick, 51, of Breezy Point (Brainerd Lakes Area, about 125 miles south of the Bagley area where this occurred)

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Gbro actually in Minnesota its illegal to build a permanent stand at all on public property! I'm pretty sure they must all be either seasonal or portable stands! I'm pretty sure if you get caught building a permanent stand on public ground its a pretty hefty fine and the loss of your license for a while. So just a heads up for anybody in Minnesota, and I'm pretty sure Minnesota isnt the only state with these laws!
Well this stand sure seems to be a portable ladder stand by the way the story reads, although I may be mistaken on that,
But Yes a permanent stand can still be used on public property in many places in Minnesota. The rules are no higher than 16 feet. You probably made that assumption about permanent stands from the story about my encounter with hunters in our stands on opening morning 35 + - <> years ago, when we were only allowed a 6 foot high stand but could even erect them on National Forrest lands. There are some county's like Cass that restrict stands to portables only but State forests only encourage the use of portables and anything big has to be removed after so many days.
Also many corporate leases restrict permanent stands, Like Potlatch Corp.

Quote:
According to a release from the Clearwater County Attorney's office, about 10:45 p.m. on Nov. 6 law enforcement officers responded to a report of a trespasser on property located near the Height-of-Land Road in Clearwater County. Law enforcement officers found neither the reporter nor the trespasser on the scene
And this happened in the early hours of the day!

Quote:
Clearwater County Attorney Jeanine Brand said in an e-mail that the ownership of the property is under investigation. A check of the Clearwater County Assessor’s Office shows that McCormick does not own land in that county.
From this additional news story,
A friend of mine had a dispute over a locked gate on a road used to access public land where the land owner had given him permition to use(the road) but had failed to tell the other neighbors who put up the gate to limit access into said public land. This road was a driveway that wasn't declared a right of way or easement so it got heated until the land owner could be contacted.
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Old December 1, 2010, 02:34 PM   #27
srkavanagh6621
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Straight form the Minnesota Hand book about public land.

Elevated Stands: A person may not construct, occupy, or use any
elevated scaffold or other elevated device for the purpose of hunting,
watching, or killing wild animals, except that portable stands may be
used if they are removed each day at the close of hunting hours and
do no permanent damage.
Prior to the opening day of archery deer
season, portable stands may be left overnight in a wildlife
management area by a person with a valid bear license who is
hunting within 100 yards of a bear bait site that is legally tagged
and registered. The stand must have affixed the person’s name and
address to the stand in such a manner that it can be read from the
ground.

So just so ya know its a little off topic but you must not build a permanent stand on public land, yes maybe you could classify a ladder stand as not permanent but I known I wouldn't wanna lug one around back and forth.
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Old December 1, 2010, 02:38 PM   #28
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I guess that disproves the "Armed society is a polite society" theory.
I'd been wondering that myself.
Now stop reading my mind! Only my wife is allowed to do that!!
:-)
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Old December 1, 2010, 02:41 PM   #29
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Interesting Sides Here...

This is really interesting to see the side of those who own acreage that makes excellent hunting and those who don't but want to use it.

I get pretty darn territorial about my property, be it 1 acre, 4 acres, or 500 acres.

Most could relate to their house whether they own or rent, you have a yard, usually front and back. If you came out to investigate the sound of an ATV and found some clown hauling in building supplies to make a stand in a tree in your backyard you are going to be one ****** off confrontational dude. There is absolutely no difference if it's a hundred or a thousand acres, it's private land, it's yours, and it's your right to keep it untouched and pristine if that's the way you want it to be.

I grew up surrounded by ranches and mountain property as big as 20 and 30 thousand acres. Where I grew up you didn't just go on someone's property without asking for permission. Most land owners will allow people on their land who show them the proper respect and regard for the fact that they own the property and it is their right to keep people off if they choose to. This shows the landowner that you are responsible and respectful.

The kind of people who would not only trespass in disregard of posted private property but would go farther than that with ATV's and building hunting clubs in the trees are disrespectful pigs. Disrespectful pigs shoot cows and think if they can get away with building a stand they have the "right" to do anything. I know ranchers using BLM land that deal with cows being shot every year. Some get cut up and quartered with a chainsaw for the meat and others get shot because they can be and a couple of steaks get cut off to cook by a fire. The kind of person who would do that deserves whatever works best to deal with it. The areas I have in mind you couldn't get law enforcement into, it's too much of a wild west situation, they are literally afraid of being shot by people who have a total disregard for the law.

Say a piece of private property is big enough that several parties have built tree stands, and it gets into disputes over them that results in people getting shot. Guess who gets sued for the unruliness? The landowner, that's who. Their homeowner's insurance is a big target for liability and that's who will get sued, not maybe, will be.

If a nice respectul guy comes to me and asks to hunt on my property it's going to come down to if he can hunt without an ATV, without building a stand, and without leaving any signs behind that he was there such as trash. I see someone in a stand that they built without my permission I'm going to tell him under no uncertain terms that he is to be off my property or the sheriff is going to handle it from there. I'm going to be carrying a knarly sniper caliber rifle and point out what a great target they are sitting alone in that tree. It would be very hard to enjoy hunting feeling like you are a target. Coming back to check and he's still there it's hard to say whether I'd leave and go get a sheriff or escort the guy to the edge of my property walking behind him. I'm definitely an escort him off the property sort of guy, some people you argue with, some you don't. I know if a guy has an ATV on my property I'm not even going to talk to him I'm going to get the sheriff.

Go back to that scenario of someone taking over your backyard in a residential neighborhood and see how that would leave you feeling before getting judgemental about a landowner getting territorial about his personal property, it's no different.

Added as an afterthought:
What I guess I was trying to say is that I wouldn't dare go on privately held posted land. I have known a lot of people including myself who are ranch owners, and I would feel a huge liklihood of simply getting shot and disappearing, my skin crawls when trespassing because in my world that has been the way it is, nothing else but the way it is. People post large land holdings within 60 miles of here because they have pot operations and they will shoot and disappear trespassers because there is a lot of money involved.
I guess it's different back east but I'll bet there's the same thing going on in parts of Kentucky, Virginia, Tennessee, Arkansas, etc. I came upon a still in Arkansas in private woods and I'm pretty sure those guys would have shot me if I hadn't run faster and hidden well. Trespassing is trespassing and things happen to those breaking the law in the first place.
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Old December 1, 2010, 02:53 PM   #30
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doofus47

The ones making the most noise about that are the ones I really worry about the most.
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Old December 1, 2010, 03:10 PM   #31
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Man, you guys that have problems with guys building stands on your property are living the good life! Our trespassers and poachers just hunt out of our stands, then steal them.

The other ones that annoy the hell out of me are the guys that don't actually enter the property. They just sit in their trucks out on the road, overlooking a patch of pasture with a plan to shoot, and then hope to drag a deer out before anyone can get to them. This is how they start. This is the gateway to the actual trespassing and theft. Never mind their trajectory from that position goes straight into a stand just down the hill, just inside the tree line. If you approach them, (and by approach, I mean sneak up on them before they can take off,) they always have a half baked excuse for sitting there staring at a patch of pasture with a rifle on their lap. "Right pal. You and every body else seems to wind up right here with a rifle on their lap as they wait for their wife to come show them where her great aunt's farm is. Good story. If I wait here with you, how many weeks will we be here before your wife shows up? Don't worry; you're not going to have to wait that long. There's a deputy on the way to help you with directions."

You wouldn't believe how many of these guys turn out to be felons in possession of a weapon - or have a stolen gun from a recent burglary – or are over the limit to even sit behind the wheel - or have warrants! "Adios moron! Enjoy your three squares and a card game with your fellow imbeciles in the day room!"
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Old December 1, 2010, 03:31 PM   #32
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It seems today the hunter does not have to fear the hunted wild, but the wild hunters (and landowners). Something appears amiss. I can't imagine spending the rest of my life in a concrete cell with hardened criminals, because I got ****** someone was in my tree stand and I chose to do some stupid, immature act. But that's just me.
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Old December 1, 2010, 03:45 PM   #33
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In the last 3 yrs. I have started suing the violators for rent in Civil Court. This year I had (4) of these structures built on my property. The earliest was built in MAY!!! The latest in August. I sue for rent. I get $700.00/month. I have prevailed every single case!! Of all the suits only (2) didn't pay, so I imposed liens on their homes/property.
This is so great! Hit them where it counts, in the Pocket Book!
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Old December 1, 2010, 04:24 PM   #34
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Trespassers are very brazen in other ways. I have a buddy in the mountains of NC who has recurring problems with ginseng poachers. These guys are usually armed, and have driven 4x4's around his locked gate to access the property.

I don't consider myself bloodthirsty, but as a juror I would nullify any case against a property owner who shot an armed trespasser, or harmed him in some other way when the armed trespasser refused to leave.

Property rights mean nothing, otherwise.
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Old December 1, 2010, 04:38 PM   #35
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Immature act?

Doesn't the immaturity start with the criminal act of trespassing, not to mention blatant disregard for someone else's property?

There is a disconnect here between those who have and those who don't respect that it is owned by someone else.

I had a phenomenal deer on my property, I had guys offering me thousands of dollars to shoot it, the highest being $5000 (and he even added "okay, how much?). I refused it as was my right. The arguments were that they could shoot it from my property line, it's going to leave your property and get shot anyway might as well be me, You don't own the deer, etc. etc. I told the guy that thought he could shoot it from the road and come on the property to get it that that would be a massive mistake.

The crime starts (it is a criminal act to trespass on private property) with trespassing. It's a mistake to defend, allow for, and look the other way when another person's rights and property are being violated. Start the defense and feeling sorry for the one who's property is violated, not the idiot who can't be bothered with laws.


MLeake
What trespassers will do is unbelievable. I knew a guy who was checking on a big piece of property because people had been camping on it, they were making a mess cutting trees in the way of where they wanted to be.

He hears chainsaws and goes to see they are felling big trees and splitting it with a log splitter. They are making a horrible mess leaving slash and smaller damaged trees because it isn't their property so there is no regard for how they leave it.

He goes to tell them to get off and he's confronted by half a dozen guys with guns. Sheriff couldn't drum up enough guys to take care of it so he calls friends to give cover support and takes care of evicting this bunch himself. Took a D9 in and flattened anything still there including trucks and ATV's. You have to support the landowners. Won his cases when the trespassers tried to sue for damages.

The court hearing was a joke as it was conducted by a very sympathetic judge. He wanted to know was the land posted and got a typical we didn't know defense. Was there chains on the fence? No, they were open, the judge says so then you were aware there were gates but you went through anyway because they were already open? You can picture the well.....did you have written permission to be on the property.....well no.

The trespasser doesn't have a leg to stand on if he starts by being confrontational and doesn't just leave. Fine line between chainsaws, dozers, and guns.
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Old December 1, 2010, 05:30 PM   #36
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Last spring a few guys wanted to hunt turkeys, on my neighbors land. They took chainsawa and cleared the brushline, piled it up and set it on fire. The fire dept was dispatched to put it out and save them fellas from burning to death.

We get lots of city folk come out, they road hunt, shoot up signs, leave empty beer cans all over the place.


Had my truck messed with one time.

A nice place out in the country costs a bit of money, and takes a lot of work to keep it up. I dont take kindly to folks want to come mess it up cause some animals choose to be there.
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Old December 1, 2010, 05:51 PM   #37
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They shoot up your "no trespassing signs", something's wrong with that.
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Old December 1, 2010, 06:22 PM   #38
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Trespassers are nothing more than thieves. Generally they come from a long line of thieves. The apple tends not to fall far from the tree. I firmly believe if something is worth having then it is worth defending, consequences be damned.
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Old December 1, 2010, 10:17 PM   #39
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the old farm my wife lived on when we met, people hunted from the roads, it was horrible, but most deer was left behind, everytime I heard a shot I would walk to back bedroom window & open it & fire a semi auto 40 caliber & empty clip into ground, wife would be looking out window & watch & see how fast them rednecks left. it was in middle of true redneck hell. we moved from there 3 years ago to this place I have owned for 12 years. no hunting here, & better place, but still rural, but not as rural as my other land, thats 45+ miles from here

I know the state put up a dedicated sign / plaque, at wifes former property, & someone shot it the first night.

all those that favor the hunters, & not the property owners have never experienced it first hand. most hunters are respectful, it is the bad ones that ruin it for most, as the real bad ones are really bad.

as for my land, I was hiking it a few weeks ago & saw signs of hunters, but no problems to complain about. 1 soda can & a few shot gun shells are not bad, for all the hiking I did. if it stays like that I will never complain, unless any misuse starts again. but if it did, I dont think I would do what I did then, & I wouldnt call police, I dont know if I wouldn't contact some old friends & see if they want to open a branch "clubhouse" for a motorcycle gang to keep property in order! I worked at a bike shop many many years, my boss was in a 1%er club, he retired from the club, but kept close ties. he is still a very close friends, & we been friends since 1982. so let them come back & build a small place & let a few bikers take over for a while. I can gaurantee property would be kept clean & respected, & hunters would lose all the time & effort, & wouldnt be removing the 12+ foot tree house.

Randy
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Old December 1, 2010, 10:29 PM   #40
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Some of the stories you guys are posting are really frightening. It is my dream to one day own a large property, but hearing the troubles you go through is enough to give second thoughts. Are there certain states where this is a more serious problem than others?

Accidental tresspass is forgiveable, if there is an enterance to the property that isn't posted and the tresspasser is using a temporary stand. Building a permanant structure, cutting down trees, etc. is another story all together. Even if it was public land that's a no-no. Those people are true outlaws with no regard for others. Confronting such people is really dangerous, and some of you make it sound like law enforcement won't always respond. Bad stuff.
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Old December 1, 2010, 10:30 PM   #41
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SRKAV.......
Quote:
Straight form the Minnesota Hand book about public land.

Elevated Stands: A person may not construct, occupy, or use any
elevated scaffold or other elevated device for the purpose of hunting,
watching, or killing wild animals, except that portable stands may be
used if they are removed each day at the close of hunting hours and
do no permanent damage.
You need to look at pages 70 & 71 and also page 112 in the hand book you are quoting from.

Quote:
STATE FORESTS
State forest lands are generally open for hunting and .......
Elevated Stands
The use of portable tree stands is "RECOMENDED". especially those which can be secured without driving nails into trees............
Any Permanent unoccupied stand or blind on public land is public and not the property of the person who constructed the stand from page 112
Quote:
Elevated Stands
No person may take deer from a constructed platform or other structure that is higher than 16 feet. This restruiction does not include or apply to a portable stand that is........
It goes on to list only portables can be used in scientific and natural areas that are open to hunting.

Yes we can use Permenent stands on public property except where restricted like Cass County public land and National Forests.
There is vast amounts of public County lands out there without restrictions to portable stands.

You have to read the whole rule book to understand all the different restrictions. Again pages 70 & 71 and 112.
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Old December 1, 2010, 10:35 PM   #42
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Good thing I moved to the great state of South Dakota I guess! I know when I did live in Minnesota all the public land around were I hunted it was illegal to build a stand! thats why I thought all were so you are right my apologizes.
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Old December 1, 2010, 10:59 PM   #43
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my area is Virginia, as for our local police, well where land was, the law was corrupt! A few years ago the sherrif of 45 years was finally arrested along with around a dozen of his deputies. where I actually live is peaceful & in a different area & low crime.

as for my rural land. let me give a huge tease, 6 to 8 or so miles from it is an area so bad for crime it once made the cover of US News & world reports, & has been mentioned several times since, the population was around "700" yes 700 residents in the whole area, but crime was worse than in any major city, in old days when a murder happened they were not notified until body was cold, & no one ever saw anything. people walking the rural country roads would throw molative coctails for fun at cars, especially if you was caucasion, or shoot at cars, I stayed away, I think they started cleaning the area up in 96 or there abouts, I didnt look it up tonight & I am going by memory, but if anyone is real curious I will google it & give some links.

the area was originally inhabitated by released slaves it was called "log town" for the log homes that once existed from the poverty, but now it is called sandy level, & then their decendents became gang wannabees, & tried to rule that particular area, but not where my land was, just their tiny section.

some parts of Virginia are great, other parts are bad, & a few places are not fit for humans. there isnt enough money in the world for me to travel through that area unarmed, even though today it isnt real bad? I know what it once was.

I have for many years been saying I want to write a book about rednecks, to compete with Jeff foxworthy, but unlike Jeff, I actually want documented actual photographs, & not a bunch of make believe jokes. for where I live most roads near me I could take some whopper pics if I ever get a wild hair. & especially where wife used to live, in redneck central.

Randy
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Old December 2, 2010, 02:00 AM   #44
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People who live in cities and more refined areas are sheltered from knowing what remote rural can be, and more importantly what trashy people consider fair conduct with other's property.

It's hard to imagine telling someone to get off your property and being threatened and told to go take a flying ####. Things can escalate real quick and a moments lapse could easily get you killed.
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Old December 2, 2010, 06:29 AM   #45
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Rural Living and trespassers

Rural living requires some sacrifices. LEOs are slow in responding. In my case 30min - 1hr. Just forget EMS and Fire Services. The maintenance on the property is substantial. It took me & my Wife, together 6-9hrs to mow grass, 6hrs without trimming. Bush hogging the fence lines and borders took 8hrs. in addition to the mowing. There was no municipal/county/state snow removal. There's the need and cost associated with the equipment for the above (Tractor, implements, two Dixie Choppers) The Building PMs alone took forever. Well, Septic Tank, Dam on the lake. I raised livestock and the care of the animals was in addition to all of the above everyday...I need a break just thinking about it.
Then the Trespassers! I had Hunters, Fisherman, and Hikers. One Summer I had a Trespassing Fisherman drown after he and his (2) sons scaled my 6' high Chain Link Fence. The fence had "No Trespassing" signs posted every 50' (Bi-Lingual) His family then tried to sue us!! We prevailed, but, it still cost me ~$2500.00 in time off and attorney fees. I live in the 'burbs now and never regret the move. The earlier poster who commented that Trespassers are just Thieves is absolutely right!! If I lived in a truly remote area like in some portions on Montana, Arizona, etc. and I had the same Rural environment I had before I'd have to add the cost of a Back Hoe attachment and Claymores to the O&M cost. Then Trespasser disposal would be part of my daily chores as well.
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Old December 2, 2010, 06:51 AM   #46
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Hummmmmmmmm Killing over trespassing.........When governments do it, its called war. The winner usually decides who's right. This is not to say that I condone any of it. Just a statement of fact.
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Old December 2, 2010, 07:26 AM   #47
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sc928porsche,

What is it called when governments kill over attacks on the citizenry?

Or, to translate, at the government level self defense is also war - so what is your point?
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Old December 2, 2010, 08:35 AM   #48
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Quote:
I guess that disproves the "Armed society is a polite society" theory.
Quote:
I'd been wondering that myself.
Contrary to the characters of a fictional book or a group by that name, the only reason why people in an armed society would be more polite is out of fear that peaved off one of their fellow members will result in them getting shot. The notion that being in possession of a gun will somehow change an individual's manners is at best naive. A material object isn't going to make a person a better person in society. They are the same person they were, only armed. TVs, vehicles, knives, swords, or even other weaponry hasn't even resulted in society getting more polite.

What seems to make some gun owners more polite is knowing that their permits to carry can so easily be yanked for fairly minor issues. For folks bent on breaking the law, they could not care less.
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Old December 2, 2010, 10:45 AM   #49
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1911rocks,

Quote:
and if I had the same Rural environment I had before I'd have to add the cost of a Back Hoe attachment and Claymores to the O&M cost. Then Trespasser disposal would be part of my daily chores as well.
You should be in charge of our borders!

well said
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Old December 2, 2010, 11:26 AM   #50
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Where our land is located, there is no such thing as 'accidental tresspass'. Every January and June, the four of us guys that lease our land, have to refresh our no tresspassing signs. We have bright yellow signs less than 50 feet apart, around the entire property line. If you are on our property, ANYWHERE, you have walked within a maximum of 25 feet of a clearly visible posted sign to get there. No way otherwise.

3 months ago, we found a car on one of our trails. An old beater, 3 or 4 hundred dollar car, with a flat tire. They didn't come thru any of our gates, they cut some trees to get there and joyride on our trails. Idiots, when the car blew the tire, (trails are rough sometimes) They abandoned it. We called sheriff, who came out and looked it over and said nothing he could do, but that the car was OURS as far as he was concerned, to do with as we pleased. Title was in the trunk, names and dates of purchase. It will be hauled off for a couple hundred dollars of scrap money, to buy some more posted signs.

It is never ending. Close up one hole that they come in from, and they move down the line and open up another. It is always a game of being one step behind the others. This is only a 150 acre lease--but who wants to walk the perimeter twice a year putting up signs that were torn down, to fight a never ending battle?

25 or more years ago, my dad and I found a treestand on our property. We waited for the first day of season, and in the dark, went to the stand. Dad stood 30 or so feet away in the darkness, and I climbed into the stand, waiting for the tresspasser. Little later, here comes a flashlight in the distance. He gets to the tree, and looks up and sees me and tells me I'm tresspassing in his stand. I ask him who gave him permission to be on OUR land, he gives a name that obviously is a lie, and I told him he's wrong--he's over 100 yards on our side of the property line. He starts to get irate when out of the darkness, dad speaks up and says to get off the property right now and never come back. That was all it took, a second voice coming from out in the dark, and he decided to leave. No more argument.

sixgun

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