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Old November 29, 2010, 03:59 PM   #51
booker_t
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I was alone at an outdoor range the other day, far left bench of 6 stations, no partition between the stations. Shooting a mix of Ruger Mark III .22LR and Glock 20 10mm at 7yd.

Two older fellas (about 20 years my senior) came up to the line at the far right station. They pull out a slick-looking black AR-pistol with bipod, chambered in .22LR. Put it on their bench, and it's pointed directly left, down the line right at me.

I take a few steps back off the line before I say anything, wait a little bit and just watch them fiddle with the action, extending the bipod, get the ammo out.

Come up to them and ask if they "..intended to shoot that way," while pointing downrange. They give me puzzled looks and then realize which way the damn thing was pointing, turn it the right way, and sure enough, "It's okay it isn't loaded."

Made me feel so much better.
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Old November 29, 2010, 05:20 PM   #52
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Probably some of the most dangerous people around guns are young males in their 20's, especially in groups. They're so pumped up full of hormones and Hollywood machismo, safety rules can go out the window.

This happened to my cousin's 21 year old son several years ago. He worked on a construction crew - a summer job while he was in college - and he and some of his buddies liked to go out shooting on weekends. One Saturday morning they were all over at one guy's apartment getting ready to go shoot. There were 6 or 7 of them, and they proudly displayed all their guns on the kitchen table.

My cousin's son liked to horse around; he was always holding his .45 1911 up to his head, saying "hey, I'm going to shoot myself!" and dry-firing it. This time, though, he reached down and accidentally picked up his friend's identical .45 1911, which was always loaded, and blew his brains all over the living room. His friend was standing right in front of him watching him when it went off. Now, several years later, he's still getting psychiatric treatment, trying to get that picture out of his head.

Interestingly enough, my cousin taught his sons safe gun handling starting when they were 8-10 years old, firing single shot .22's, and he taught them VERY thoroughly, by the book, very strictly. Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't teach kids safe gun handling, but never take it for granted: sometimes all the safety training in the world can't compete with the hormones of youth.

- Ruark

Last edited by Ruark; November 29, 2010 at 05:41 PM.
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Old November 29, 2010, 05:23 PM   #53
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There's a big difference between what you're describing and the guy I chewed out the other day for waving a rifle around, then refusing to show clear because, "I can tell it's unloaded by the weight."
Yes, I completely agree with this and I don't mean to pick any arguments with anyone over this at all. This kind of thing puts a shiver down my spine. In fact I happeed to be present at a gun show where some idiot somehow snuck in a loaded (unknown to him) pistol (still don't know how he got it past the police), handed it to another idiot who pointed it down at idiot #1's foot pulled the trigger and shot the guy's foot. Neither of them thought to check to see if the gun was loaded. It was dead silent in that place for what seemed like several minutes after that.

Always, always, ALWAYS check the chamber or cylinder. I've picked up guns before that I thought were unloaded to find a round in the chamber....last time it was just a snap-cap, but still made me glad that I always check and recheck.

Oh, and as a general rule - just to be clear - I never point guns (or arrows) at anything that I can't fix or afford to buy under normal conditions.

Last edited by Skans; November 29, 2010 at 05:30 PM.
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Old November 29, 2010, 05:40 PM   #54
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The 14 year old honor student riding his bicycle six blocks away does not have to be endangered by a mag change that orients the gun in a manner that could result in him being shot.
Don't understand what dangerous manner you're talking about. It isn't the one I described where the gun is held below eye level, but still elbow to arms length away from the body. Can't speak for everyone, but when I do my reloads in that manner, the gun is nowhere close to being pointed at my face.

Lock your elbow to your side and point the mag. well toward your mag. pouch (weak side) and you'll be concerned no longer.

Any gun discharging at that point, would put a bullet over Bubba's head closer than he'd be compfy with.

Agreed that any technique that does orient the gun in such a manner as you described, would be dangerous, indeed--whether it was during a reload or any for any other reason.

Last edited by Nnobby45; November 29, 2010 at 05:46 PM.
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Old November 29, 2010, 05:47 PM   #55
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Most knowledgeable units use (at least) training barrels and flags in those circumstances, or better still use sim-guns. I wouldn't train that way with live weapons with anyone on earth, simply because someone, sometime is going to screw up.

As soon as you're 'too good' for the basic four, I start getting doubtful. That's where most accidents happen-

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Old November 29, 2010, 05:51 PM   #56
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Probably some of the most dangerous people around guns are young males in their 20's, especially in groups. They're so pumped up full of hormones and Hollywood machismo, safety rules can go out the window.
The problem with the current generation of new shooters is that their parents didn't own guns. The parents' generation didn't shoot, and many bought into the anti-gun argument. As such, we've got a certain 18-25 year old age group for whom guns have been a taboo item until recently.

Without parental or peer guidance, they're picking up their ideas of gun handling from movies and video games. The result is appalling.

Last week, I had to tell a guy he couldn't do his drawing drills on the lane because he was unsafe. His draw stroke involved the gun coming out of the holster, then sweeping 45 degrees to the right before coming up to target. He was a little belligerent, and he claimed that he was "trained" to do that. Trained by whom?

Youtube. Heaven help us.

I've lost count of the number of times I've had to explain that "there's no clip in it" doesn't qualify as unloaded, or that it's still not acceptable to sweep people with an "unloaded" gun. "The safety's on" is no excuse, either.

Now, I'm sure there are some younger members reading this who are bristling upon reading this. I know it's not all you guys; your generation is producing some great shooters. We had imbeciles in my generation, too.

The difference is that there's a lot more of you guys, and there don't seem to be enough responsible shooters to call the irresponsible ones out. It's a numbers game. Every generation polices its own to some extent--you guys just have a tougher hill to climb in doing it.
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Old November 29, 2010, 06:27 PM   #57
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I always check and double check my firearms before handling. However, an unloaded gun is as harmless and a piece of wood. I don't mind a bit double checking it and then dry firing at spots on the wall or practicing different draws.

Even if I put it down and leave the room for a moment I'll check it again when I come back. The nice thing about revolvers is that you can check even without opening the cylinder.
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Old November 29, 2010, 06:40 PM   #58
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Checking without opening the cylinder...

... I take it you are looking for rims on the backside of the cylinder?

You can, but it only takes a second or two more to open the thing.

Then again, I broke my nose once, back in my teens, running into a glass door that I very well knew I had left open. I was the only one up and about in the house, and I had just opened that door a minute before.

I didn't know that my dad had got up long enough to wander out into the living room, close the door to the Florida room, then trundle back off to bed.

A windstorm blew up, and I saw the tarp flailing on the neighbor's Hobie Cat, so I went trotting around to go out the back way and secure his tarp.

Wham!!!

Amazingly, the glass didn't shatter. I left a nice nose smear on it, though. ER said broken nose, minor concussion.

But I just knew that door was open...

Shouldn't have done such a good job windexing it the day before.

Point being, even when you know something is a certain way, it never hurts to verify. It sometimes does hurt, not to verify.
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Old November 29, 2010, 07:51 PM   #59
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Ruark.... I could be wrong, but that sounds more like a case of stupid than hormonal youth.
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Old November 29, 2010, 11:07 PM   #60
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Quote:
However, there are times when I am training with a select few knowledgable and experienced people that we use our actual carry weapons for various drills.
Post #20 on this thread deals with situations when the rules need to be broken. It's pretty obvious that there are times when it's necessary, but it should never become routine and we should do our best to implement other reasonable safeguards to prevent injury/death when we intentionally bypass a gun safety rule.
Quote:
Can't speak for everyone, but when I do my reloads in that manner, the gun is nowhere close to being pointed at my face.
The quote you're responding to says nothing about the gun being pointed at your face--in fact no one on the thread has said anything about the gun being pointed at the shooter's face during a reload. It is about the gun being canted so that it's pointing upward at about a 45 degree angle--angled forward, upward and toward the shooter's weak side.
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Old November 30, 2010, 12:33 AM   #61
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Checking the condition of a Revolver

Quote:
The nice thing about revolvers is that you can check even without opening the cylinder.
Quote:
... I take it you are looking for rims on the backside of the cylinder?

You can, but it only takes a second or two more to open the thing.
These statements are not NECESSARLY true. If you revolver has counter-bored charge holes (as in my model 28), then the rims of the cartridges are barely or not visible at all from the rear of the cylinder. Many of the older S&W revolvers were produced in this manner. Best to open the cylinder up boys, just to make sure.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old November 30, 2010, 05:44 AM   #62
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Quote:
However, there are times when I am training with a select few knowledgable and experienced people that we use our actual carry weapons for various drills.
NEVER EVER!! A real working weapon, never gets pointed at anyone you would not be concerned with shooting. Ever.

The amount of students, and Police Firearms Instructors who have been shot dead with unloaded guns? Many! On ranges, but mostly in classes.

Red or blue guns, made of solid plastic, or fiber glass. They can be used, you can see they are not real, but even then, when used in a class, to demo movement, still is not pointed at fellow class members.

Air soft, and proper eye protection used in Police academy's. With many checks, and further checks.
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Old November 30, 2010, 07:43 AM   #63
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If you're using a carry/duty weapon for training, it's worth a few bucks to get a bright yellow plastic training barrel insert which replaces the barrel and therefore makes the weapon impossible to shoot, but allows you to include the weight of a loaded magazine (for a semiauto).

They've been discussed extensively in other, similar, threads.
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Old November 30, 2010, 08:48 AM   #64
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Red or blue guns, made of solid plastic, or fiber glass. They can be used, you can see they are not real, but even then, when used in a class, to demo movement, still is not pointed at fellow class members.

Air soft, and proper eye protection used in Police academy's. With many checks, and further checks.
Sorry, none of the above are the same thing as using your usual carry gun. Not even close! Size, weight, trigger - especally on those using double action only, not the same. We use our carry guns. We try out others as well to see what works well in different situations. We are adults. We know what we are doing. And, there is no law restricting me from training with a real firearm. I do take safety precautions and take safety very seriously. Firearms are checked multiple times by everyone individually and in front of everyone. You may not like or agree with the way I like to train, and I am not trying to convince others to do it the way I do it. But, there is a legitimate purpose for practicing different drills with real, unloaded firearms - that's all I'm saying.

Last edited by Skans; November 30, 2010 at 08:54 AM.
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Old November 30, 2010, 08:48 AM   #65
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Quote:
NEVER EVER!! A real working weapon, never gets pointed at anyone you would not be concerned with shooting. Ever.
Simmunition guns are real working (firearm) weapons.

Quote:
Air soft, and proper eye protection used in Police academy's.
Airsoft are real weapons, not firearms, but are weapons.

Quote:
With many checks, and further checks.
And yet people keep getting wounded or killed during training with training guns that turn out to be real, sort of like "unloaded" guns.

So we have absolutist safety rules that if followed would actually keep people from getting harmed, but we have rules that are blatantly ignored and all the "work arounds" to the safety rules and people keep getting hurt and killed. It is a very interesting problem.

Notice that while we have a set of 4 formal and very simplistic safety rules, we do not have a set of corollary "work around" safety rules that are codified. I suppose that even if codified, we will likely have a set of institutionally approved blatant violations for them as well.

Everyone just says that we need to check and recheck, to be careful, etc., but individuals, departments, training schools all do it differently. No doubt part of the problem is that there are all sorts of different circumstances and platforms for which there need to be rules.
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Old November 30, 2010, 09:27 AM   #66
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Sorry, none of the above are the same thing as using your usual carry gun. Not even close! Size, weight, trigger - especally on those using double action only, not the same. We use our carry guns. We try out others as well to see what works well in different situations. We are adults. We know what we are doing. And, there is no law restricting me from training with a real firearm. I do take safety precautions and take safety very seriously. Firearms are checked multiple times by everyone individually and in front of everyone. You may not like or agree with the way I like to train, and I am not trying to convince others to do it the way I do it. But, there is a legitimate purpose for practicing different drills with real, unloaded firearms - that's all I'm saying.
I have no desire to stop you. This is a discussion board, a poor medium for that anyway.

I have been fortunate to train with people who do this for a living, and they would not do what you're doing. It might be HSLD, but there is equipment available to obviate the need of using operational weapons in training. The reason there is such equipment is that many units along the way who are serious and concerned about safety when using live weapons have shot each other. This created a need, and manufacturers have filled it with training barrels, sim guns, airsoft guns and other equipment.

You can certainly do as you please. But IMHO you're doing it unsafely, at least compared to alternatives that are readily available.

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Old November 30, 2010, 10:37 AM   #67
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DT Guy, your comments are well taken. From a statistical perspective given relatively large numbers of trainees, using airsoft or simulation guns would likely be a safer method than using real firearms, even with multiple safety checks.

However, I am quite confident in the safety measures my small group uses and on that basis I am willing to make the trade-off of using actual carry guns to the safer practice of using simulated weapons. Its a matter of choice, and I acknowledge that when I participate in these simulations, I'm choosing less safety over being able to use actual carry weapons. I suppose that if we had the money and ability to purchase training barrels for all of our guns, that would be the best of both worlds.
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Old November 30, 2010, 10:53 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
And, there is no law restricting me from training with a real firearm.
If you live in Washington state, there certainly is. Perhaps your own state has a similar law on the books:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.230 WA state law code

(1) For conduct not amounting to a violation of chapter 9A.36 RCW, any person who:

(a) Aims any firearm, whether loaded or not, at or towards any human being;

...

although no injury results, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.
Doesn't matter that it's not loaded and that your intentions are benign, or that you aren't committing a criminal assault. If you point your gun at another human being in this state, you have committed a gross misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail and a $5000 fine.

As for the (dangerous, foolish) notion that one can somehow advance with firearms to the point where the safety rules no longer apply to you -- that's an idea that kills a certain number of SWAT team members, military personnel including "elite" teams, DT instructors and their students every year. Check out Ken Murray's wonderful and very instructive Training at the Speed of Life for a better understanding of the scope of the problem and also for a good outline of some ways to solve it. The book is very very helpful for those seeking realism in training, which it sounds as if you are. I strongly recommend it, as it may help you build better and even more realistic drills for yourself and your friends while maintaining a safer environment.

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Old November 30, 2010, 10:57 AM   #69
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Just thought to add: training barrels cost around $15 apiece. Damn cheap compared to the cost of a human life.

Or even the cost of a holster, which you've certainly purchased for all the guns you train with.

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Old November 30, 2010, 11:23 AM   #70
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If you're using a carry/duty weapon for training, it's worth a few bucks to get a bright yellow plastic training barrel insert which replaces the barrel and therefore makes the weapon impossible to shoot, but allows you to include the weight of a loaded magazine (for a semiauto).
That seems like an ideal solution to me. Yes, the training barrel will be lighter in weight than the actual barrel, but that's a small compromise to make in order to ensure that an accident cannot happen. Thanks, booker_t!

DD
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Old November 30, 2010, 11:28 AM   #71
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Training barrels sound like a good idea - something I've haven't considered before. I'll look into seeing if they have training barrels for my carry gun(s).
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Old November 30, 2010, 11:40 AM   #72
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The 4 safety rules:

1. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times; what constitutes a safe direction "a direction in the event the firearm were to discharge, the projectile would not harm property, life or person".

2. Do not load until you are ready to start shooting-rifle is pointed in a safe direction

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Make sure others around you are following the safety rules.

Sadly, people don't follow these rules. I can't tell you how many times I have been swept by a barrel because the was owner being careless.
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Old November 30, 2010, 11:58 AM   #73
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That's an interesting law, Pax. How does it handle training situations that use real firearms. I've been in several classes and event that use real revolvers with Code Eagle or sims?

Do the folks in WA state like FAS or Insights worry about that? I've been in Insights classes with Code Eagle in TX.
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Old November 30, 2010, 12:04 PM   #74
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Glenn ~ I don't know how Insights handles it. At FAS, we use Airsoft for scenario training -- which aren't "firearms" because they do not fire their projectiles using the rapid, confined burning of a propellant.

Skans ~ Excellent! Here are two good sources:

www.blade-tech.com/Training-Barrel-pr-1018.html

www.trainsafe.us

Of the two, I personally prefer to use the Blade Tech product, but the Train Safe block works with more brands of firearm and it costs less. Either one allows great realism and lets you use your own holsters & other gear without a hitch.

To use these products to best advantage, I also pick up a roll of brightly-colored yellow, orange, or red electrical tape from the hardware store. After the barrel is installed, I stripe the tape around the grip of the gun and leave it there until I take the training barrel back out. This does two things:

1) It lets me see at a glance, while the gun is still in the holster, that it's one of the "safe" guns,

and

2) It prevents me from grabbing that gun for self defense, even if I later toss it in the safe with the training barrel still in place.

When working with friends, we all know to watch what's in each other's holsters. Anyone who spots an unmarked gun knows to call an immediate CEASEFIRE until the situation is clarified and remedied.

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Old November 30, 2010, 03:04 PM   #75
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Quote:
The 4 safety rules:

1. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times; what constitutes a safe direction "a direction in the event the firearm were to discharge, the projectile would not harm property, life or person".

2. Do not load until you are ready to start shooting-rifle is pointed in a safe direction

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Make sure others around you are following the safety rules.
Wow, thesheepdog, I don't believe those are quite the safe rules we were discussing or are quite a set that I have seen before, but your variant introduces yet another problem to the equation, doesn't it? Is everyone using the same set of rules? Coopers' rules are here...http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

There are the 3 NRA rules http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp. Canada's rules - ACTS. Remington's 10 commandments http://www.remington.com/pages/news-...mandments.aspx . I am sure there are some other sets out there as well.

I see your rules pretty well preclude the use of many belt holsters, pocket carry, thunderwear, pagerpal ,etc. too.

The notion of never loading until you are ready to start shooting sounds like it would make a lot of armed defense fairly useless, and even if it just applies to rifles, would make many hard to use properly and effectively for patrol or for hunting.

I have never seen #4 before anywhere. I guess that would be the "everybody is a RSO" rule.
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Last edited by Double Naught Spy; November 30, 2010 at 03:11 PM.
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