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Old November 18, 2010, 08:42 PM   #26
Alex Johnson
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Perhaps it's just that there are too many deer in North Dakota and more importantly plenty of places to hunt where I live, but I find this story rather disturbing in many ways. Unless a person is starving a dead deer is certainly not worth fighting over.
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Old November 18, 2010, 09:04 PM   #27
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Something I'll never forget!

I was about 9-10, on a hunting trip with my dad. It was during Ohio's deer black powder season and we were hunting a remote, old strip mine area.
An overnight snow storm dumped about 5"'s of snow and the long hike to our stand the next morning in the dark was interesting. We got to our stand which was located on the top of a huge hill. When it was daylight we could see forever with the fresh snow.

After a few hrs. of daylight, dad had been glassing some grazing deer on the opposite hill. The deer had started skirting around the hill towards another hunter that was on a stand right in their path.
Dad handed me the field glasses and pointed out what was going on. I watched this hunter shoot a nice deer. The deer ran down hill a bit before falling. The hunter made his way to the deer, field dressed it and started the long drag to the gravel rd.
I watched this guy drag the deer which seemed like forever falling several time in the snow.

He got about 40-50yds from the road when a van drove by very slowly and disappeared over the hill. As the hunter got to the road, here comes the van and stops. As I remember there were at least three guys that got out of the van and took the hunters deer from him at gunpoint.

I gave the field glasses back to dad, telling him what was going on. He watched as the thieves loaded the deer and drove off.

When we finally made it to the hunter, he was sitting on a log alongside the road. He was visibly shaken and P.O'd to say the least. I remember dad apologizing to him for not being able to get to him fast enough to help. Dad offered to let him hunt with us but since he had attached his temporary tag to stolen deer, he had no deer pemit.

Dad and I saw an ONDR officer the next day and dad told him of the incident, giving him the discription of the van. According to the officer, these punks had been running the roads taking deer from hunters. Hope they got caught.

Back then, it was illegal in Ohio to posses any other firearm during blackpowder season. Apparently,these cowards knew the odds were in their favor and the hunter would be, for the most part, dissarmed.

I don't think a deer is worth a life but it sure would have been nice to kill the old van this scum was in, leaving them afoot.
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Old November 18, 2010, 10:37 PM   #28
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Lance posted,
Quote:
Just not worth all the trouble, even though you were in the right.
I also feel you were "WAY" wrong to shoot unless you were only going to anchor
a wounded animal witch wasn't the case here.
Your un-holstering before approaching removed any self defense claim IMO

What you and others have shared about loosing, supposed and righteous possession of a big game animal will continue as long as there is hunting.
As far as I am concerned anyone that would claim a downed animal can have it and I would pray that they are then done hunting and go home.
And even then someone else will always take their place.
We talk about just this kind of thing in Firearms safety classes because its all about education.

AND;
Quote:
As it started going into first light I'm using the scope to see at the opposite edge of the clearing when I see my buck ***** footing out of the woods.
You posted that in the context of you were doing something that is commonplace and OK!
Its not! A scope is not a monocular/binocular. You are doing an unsafe act.
Even on private property one should follow ALL the safety rules and practices.
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Old November 18, 2010, 11:14 PM   #29
Art Eatman
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Yeah, checking out the world through a scope instead of binoculars is a serious no-no, as to safety. Most folks get just really, really negative if they hear of it or see it happening. (Unfortunately, a proper description would be a bannable offense here at TFL.)

However, there can be a comical side to arguments between hunters as to who shot a deer.

Way back before most of y'all were born, a lady was hunting on a ranch near New Braunfels, Texas. She shot a nice buck and went over to it and put her tag on it. However, all of a sudden, the buck jumped up and ran into an adjacent pasture, only having been hit on an antler. She lit in after as best she could, screaming, "Stop! Stop!"

A hunter in that next pasture saw the buck, shot it and killed it. He and his friend went over to the buck to field dress it. And here comes the lady, very much excited: "Leave that deer alone! That's MY deer!"

The two guys shook their heads and laughed and the shooter pointed out that, "Hey, Lady, 'scuse me, but I just now shot and killed that buck. What makes you think he's your buck?"

"That's my tag on him!"

Yup, there's the tag.

"Okay, Lady, okay. He's your deer. Anybody who can run that fast deserves a deer."
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Old November 18, 2010, 11:27 PM   #30
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Time for Saturday School

Sayeth the Prophet Bro. Eastwood,

"When you kill someone you take away everything they have and everything they were ever going to have."

Shall we kill someone to protect our family or ourselve? Yea.

Shall we kill someone over a deer? Nay.

This conclude the today's lesson from the second book of Unforgiven.
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Old November 25, 2010, 02:28 AM   #31
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Rangefinder,

I'm always fascinated by why some guys think a particular spot is "theirs" or a particular deer is "theirs" just because they did a few months of scouting or happened to catch a glimpse of a particular buck, especially when hunting on public land. Even if you've been hunting a public land spot for 5 or 10 years how do you know another hunter hasn't been hunting the same general area for 15 years?

I've been hunting a particular parcel of public land that has great big buck genes for about 15 years now and I've seen scores of 140 B&C plus bucks in this area year after year and have taken my fair share. The forest I'm hunting is about 13,000 acres but the particular area with the big buck genes is much smaller and is easier to access than I'd like.

Some years there are few hunters and other years there are many hunters. Depends on the day and the weather. I recognize some of the hunters and have become friendly with several of them over the years. We all know there are big bucks in this area because we've all done our homework. Invariably new guys show up any given year and traipse through the area and find the big buck sign and figure out the same thing the rest of us know so they decide they want to hunt there as well.

I don't consider the area "my spot" even though I've been hunting that area as long as anybody. Many years I see the bruiser buck I'm after before the gun season starts but I don't consider him "my buck' until I bag him and tag him and since the area is public land I certainly don't expect other hunters that also know about this area to not hunt a particular spot or big buck. I take it as a personal challenge to prove I'm a better hunter by bagging a big buck before the other guys that are hunting the same general area. Just because other guys are hunting the same general area doesn't mean I can't still shoot a big buck before they do.

About ten years after I started hunting this area a couple of sharpies figured out what the rest of us knew and these two cats set up about six ladder stands and put most of them in the right places! In our state if you put a ladder stand on public land the first guy that gets to the ladder stand has a right to hunt from it even if you don't own the ladder stand! I usually hunt from the ground but since these cats went to the trouble of setting up more ladder stands than they could hunt from and since many of them were over looking some of my favorite deer trails guess where I spent quite a bit of my time during hunting season?

I understand getting ****** if a hunter sets up right in your back pocket when you're already there first. That's not safe nor is it polite. I've had that happen quite a bit especially with guys that are afraid of the dark yet still insist on entering the woods before first light and then they decide to sit 40 yards from a stranger because they are afraid to sit in the dark by themselves. That's one of my pet peeves of deer hunting. If you're afraid of the dark wait until daylight to enter the woods, don't come sit by me! I'm not afraid of the dark and the only company I want is brown with big antlers!

Anybody else run into the afraid of the dark guys that come into the woods after you and know you're 40 yards away but insist on sitting in the same general area?
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Old November 25, 2010, 08:32 AM   #32
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Woodguru dude, Why did you even pull the trigger? I think you got yourself into one of those "sticky-wicket's", I know it's difficult to let some barbaric ass, take the hunt away from you , but on public land it can happen more frequent than people admit. If it would have been me I would have let the other hunters scenario play out. Had they ran the deer off, you'd a been back in the hunt for maybe another day. Most importantly YOUR STILL ALIVE!! I think all in all the after shot sequence was a +1 Woodguru, well played. You were probably right about them killing you as you work up the deer, never know, in this world. I myself would have never shot at a deer being engaged by another hunter, that's just my rule. However if the deer ran off with no holes in it, I'll take the next chance at it,. And if someone draws first blood, in my camp it's their deer.....period.
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Old November 25, 2010, 09:40 AM   #33
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And invading a spot that someone else has put the time, effort, and planning into working and scouting is a bad move too.
If you don't post signs, how would anyone know you were working and scouting an area?

Quote:
Then have someone come traipsing right through the area spooking off anything that would have been there.
I take it that you are hunting public land which means you don't own it. You don't get to tell people where they can and cannot go or when they can go through the area that you have somehow decided is yours.

Quote:
After shoving it back a few feet so I could get out, there was a little payback. He probably had fun finding all his plug wires scattered in the woods.
Okay, so you admit to committing a criminal act because you didn't like the hunter's non-criminal behavior.

Quote:
There are honest "oops, didn't realize you were here" moments, and then there are those who should never be allowed outside city limits--ever. I'm very tired of the latter.
Given your propensity for criminal acts, you are the latter.
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Old November 25, 2010, 09:49 AM   #34
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Oneholewonder,
Very interesting story about hunting public land.
I have never hunted private land for big game.
Here are a couple story's I wrote about some of my hunting trips.

As for afraid of the dark hunters.
Never ran across any but can remember a few times many years ago when I would let my imagination get away from me.
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Old November 25, 2010, 12:27 PM   #35
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Should he have taken the shot? NO. But how about a few of you get off the soap box. Are we talking about public land? Sure--it belongs to everyone. But I'm not swallowing behavior from some people who are completely and utterly ignorant to ethics, and not going to just excuse someone stealing the deer he shot (bad form or otherwise).

Generally speaking in terms of a spot on public land being worked or "claimed" by someone... Look at it a little differently. Lets say I'm standing in the river with my fly rod enjoying a sunny afternoon and working a nice little bend for a trout. THEN, you come waltzing out of the brush, walk onto the bend I'm trying to fish, and start casting over my line. You think that might be OK too? Do you have a right to be there? sure. But ethically, you ought to be beaten with your own pole for it.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After shoving it back a few feet so I could get out, there was a little payback. He probably had fun finding all his plug wires scattered in the woods.
Okay, so you admit to committing a criminal act because you didn't like the hunter's non-criminal behavior.
Guess you missed the part about my truck being pinned in by this idiot. Pin my vehicle in where I can't get it out of a parking spot, and I'll have you towed and then laugh out loud while you chase the tow truck. Pin me in somewhere in the middle of nowhere so I can't get out and then leave me waiting for you to return at your leisure to let me out, I don't care if it's out of pure ignorance, blatant rudeness and stupidity or any combination there-of--you'll be lucky to find your vehicle intact when you venture back to it.
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Old November 25, 2010, 01:21 PM   #36
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After hearing, and seeing, the first shot I never would have taken a shot.
An argument was sure to happen and with people who have guns, that never bodes well.
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Old November 25, 2010, 04:49 PM   #37
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Where my family hunts is public ground. Therefore I beleive in getting there early and waiting for the hunters of the other hunting groups to arive and I go talk to them , letting them know it's me and my family out in that pasture.. And I think the other hunters respect my position. I have never had an episode like the OP's, thank god, and everybody that hunts the same part that I do get's the same respect, you draw first blood and we down it, it's yours.... period..... No questions asked, it's how this bunch of hooligans roll. However if we don't find that your bullet hit the deer, tough banannas! Don't try to claim it, but we will definatley help another hunter collect his game.
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Old November 25, 2010, 10:35 PM   #38
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We go by the rules.....If it is archery season....fisrt blood gets the deer as long as the shot would have eventually killed the deer. When gun season starts it is who ever knocks the deer down and keeps it down. Just how we do things in PA. Now I have finsihed off a deer or two for my buddy and he has done the same for me. We can track deer and are darn good at it, but we don't like to. Just easier to put them down. The two of us and his dad go by who ever hit it first gets it no matter what. Again that is just us, but everyone else I know goes by the first arrow or whoever takes the shot that puts it down.


Hard to say as I have seen deer running that I had shots at that other people where shooting at. At what point do you wait before you take a shot. Again OP was talking about public land. Does he have to wait till the deer runs 25, 50 or 100 yards before he shoots at it. Clearly the other guys couldn't hit it.

I am not saying it is worth shooting someone over but what happened to ethics and doing the right thing. He shot the deer he should get it, The world has become a crazy place.
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Old November 26, 2010, 08:14 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerhunter
If it is archery season....fisrt blood gets the deer as long as the shot would have eventually killed the deer. When gun season starts it is who ever knocks the deer down and keeps it down.
See... that's the problem with rules like that.... everyone has their own. I've never heard the "rules" put the way you state them here. In fact, I've never heard that it mattered what sort of implement was in use.

Around here, and most everywhere else I've ever heard, the rule is simple:

He who makes an imminently fatal shot "owns" the animal.

How do you define "eventually kill the deer" anyway? Most deer hit with an arrow will "eventually" die. It's just a matter of whether it's 10 seconds, 5 minutes, 30 minutes or 3 days.... or somewhere in between.

Vital zone hits own the deer. Nothing else.

Under your rules, I could shoot a deer through the heart, have it run 100 yards only to be shot through the legs by another guy and since he "put it down", he owns it.
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Old November 26, 2010, 08:44 PM   #40
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This all makes a very good argument...

... for getting on good terms with people who own hunting leases.

It's hard for somebody to make a case for an animal they've shot on property where they aren't supposed to be in the first place.
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Old November 26, 2010, 09:49 PM   #41
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Woodguru,I just went and re-read your post on lead and wildlife.Something about level headed,etc.Interesting.
Makes me wonder.
In addition to many well thought,well spoken comments made already,
I turn my focus on your "having your Python in your hand under the guise of finishing the deer,but actually to get the drop on them..." not an exact quote,but close.
See,we do have legitimate right to SD when we are under mortal threat,but,getting out your gun to get the drop on them,as you approach a confrontation over the controversial issue of a dead deer?????
Plays perfectly into the fears of non gun folks who are concerned about the Hollywood stereotype."I was Marvin Milquetoast,but now I have a GUN in my hand,and I have the POWER"
In the woods deer hunting does not return us to the streets of Tombstone.
If we want to keep our precious freedom ,the RTKBA,we must be responsible.
A story like this is graffiti on the 2nd Ammendment.
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Old November 26, 2010, 10:02 PM   #42
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Quote:
Sayeth the Prophet Bro. Eastwood,

"When you kill someone you take away everything they have and everything they were ever going to have."

Shall we kill someone to protect our family or ourselve? Yea.

Shall we kill someone over a deer? Nay.

This conclude the today's lesson from the second book of Unforgiven.
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OK, I see the point.

On the other hand, what specifically would you protect from those who'd rob you at gun point? In the example given, there was no dispute over who killed it. It was an armed robbery, with no guarantee that the victim was going to survive, or that they'd stop with stealing just the deer.

Not suggesting that that it would be tactically sound to take on several armed men who have the drop on you, but I believe deadly force to prevent armed robbery is likely within the parameters of the law.

On the other hand, if there's a dispute over who killed it, then deadly force should not even be an issue.
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Old November 26, 2010, 10:17 PM   #43
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When you saw someone else had shot at it first, you should have backed off and not taken the shot. You were pretty much asking for what happened when you decided to shoot.
Absolutely! Sounds like there were three people way to hungry to fill a tag!!!

Quote:
That was the last hunting I ever did on public land, it was back in about 1988. That was the last straw as far as the idiots that are out there hunting.
Yep, one less now!!!
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Old November 26, 2010, 10:54 PM   #44
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knobby,If we assume the story is as told,If these guys shot,missed,then te deer fell,from what was written,these guys believed they shot the deer.At the very least,they first engaged the deer,and apparently had not abandoned it.
If I put myself in their shoes,they may have believed they had a successful hunt till a person with a Python showed up to rob it away from them.
So then,who is facing an armed robber?
Now,if we assume these guys were just enjoying the idea they may have just filled the tag,just hunters,not robbers;,Who introduced armed conflict into the situation?The guy who walked up ,Python in hand,is the guy who made it a grave situation.The two guys at the kill may have had a right to defend themselves.
Becoming emotional and grabbing a gun to make yourself bigger and get your way is not the way to preserve the 2nd.
Each of us,every day,if we are armed,must remain a grown up.That is our responsibility to Liberty
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Old November 27, 2010, 07:40 PM   #45
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knobby,If we assume the story is as told,If these guys shot,missed,then te deer fell,from what was written,these guys believed they shot the deer.At the very least,they first engaged the deer,and apparently had not abandoned it.
I was referring to shortwave's post where a hunter was robbed by thugs, not hunters. Guess I should have clarified.

Threats of deadly force over deer disputes simply shouldn't happen and not something I'd ever want to be a part of.

Of course, if others would attempt to take what they know to be yours, that becomes problematic and decisions will have to be made.

Anyone who fires at a deer that others are already shooting at would get little respect or sympathy from me. The term slob hunter comes to mind.
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Old November 27, 2010, 08:31 PM   #46
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I am LUCKY to be able to hunt 300 acres of PRIME N/E FL woods with 2 other hunters My freezer is FULL of deer meat, & lucky there is'nt hogs on the property, But there is turkey,deer,bobcats, & other varmits ; )PS I aint fighting over no dang deer,Lifes to short
Y/D
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Old November 27, 2010, 10:03 PM   #47
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hooligan1
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Woodguru dude, Why did you even pull the trigger? I think you got yourself into one of those "sticky-wicket's", I know it's difficult to let some barbaric ass, take the hunt away from you , but on public land it can happen more frequent than people admit. If it would have been me I would have let the other hunters scenario play out. Had they ran the deer off, you'd a been back in the hunt for maybe another day. Most importantly YOUR STILL ALIVE!! I think all in all the after shot sequence was a +1 Woodguru, well played. You were probably right about them killing you as you work up the deer, never know, in this world. I myself would have never shot at a deer being engaged by another hunter, that's just my rule. However if the deer ran off with no holes in it, I'll take the next chance at it,. And if someone draws first blood, in my camp it's their deer.....period.

Wasn't sure how to quote what hooligan1 posted above. But he is right on.

You knew someone was shooting at that deer. If you had been the one shooting at it and someone else dropped it as you were about to drop it with a correction on your Kenturcky windage, wouldn't you be wronged? Someone getting shot or worse over any game isn't worth it it my opinion.
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Old November 27, 2010, 10:12 PM   #48
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A guy offered me his tree stand today. he was done for the day !
I declined, as I don't do heights, but I have met some real nice guys out on state land.
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Old November 27, 2010, 11:55 PM   #49
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I've met some great guys also hunting public land and try to help other hunters every chance I get. I hate it when someone will see that you are in a stand hunting and walk over and want to talk. We can talk later after I leave the hunting area. when I see another hunter is in an area I may be walking through, I go around them after waving to them that I see them. No sense screwing up their hunt.
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Old November 28, 2010, 09:07 AM   #50
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Understand all of it but IMO the deer was engaged no matter if you feel you had scouted the area prior or not. It is your job to back down. If you couldn't see exactly where they were shooting from then they probably couldn't see where you were. Who's to say they hadn't scouted this area as well? Thats the problem with public land.

Now for you to *grin* at the idea of killing these two idiots sickens me as well. YOU are the one escalating the situation in your own story over the deer and then decide it isn't worth it.
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