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Old November 17, 2010, 04:07 PM   #26
MLeake
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Buzzcook...

... in this thread, we all agree the old guy with the cane was just an old guy with a cane; some of us think the OP should have moved away sooner, instead of arguing with a guy who was sticking a cane in his face, but none of us think that merited deadly force.

In the OTHER thread, the police had already hit the BG with tasers and shotgun-fired bean bags, and he still kept coming. He was described as in his 30's, and large; he obviously had very high pain tolerance. Are you seriously saying you'd want to go hands on with that?

If so, you're either braver than I am, or else you have a lot more technique and strength than I do.

Then again, it is the internet...
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Old November 17, 2010, 04:47 PM   #27
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However, had this happened on the parking lot,and I had been close to my carry pistol I would have had to make a very difficult choice in a big hurry.
What choice? get in yer car and lock the doors then drive off.

I was taught to respect the elderly, but if one is trying to hit me, I can run away, or take the cane away, I dont think I could have done any harm to any older guy.

Remember Billy Jack? I know was movie crap but there was one scene where his sensei had a cane and they were demonstrating its use in SD. Very good SD tool for some.

You must use common sense in these matters.
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Old November 17, 2010, 04:59 PM   #28
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A cane cane be a deadly weapon. I believe that given this persons state of mind and had I been away from courthouse security that force in kind would have been justified.
No Way! An old man with a cane? Give me a break!
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Old November 17, 2010, 05:19 PM   #29
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.........Please keep in mind that a person who is in a blind rage and has a weapon can hurt you in a second regardless of that persons age or physical condition.
A cane can be a deadly weapon. I believe that given this persons state of mind and had I been away from courthouse security that force in kind would have been justified.
What does force in kind mean?

Not being a lawyer myself, I don't know if a cane close to the face without making contact is the same threat, under the law, as a raised cane ready to strike. Or that an old man represents the same threat as a stronger, younger man, with a similar weapon.

I'd expect a lawyer who carries a gun to understand that if he had time to draw his weapon, he'd also have time to back off and get from under the old man's threat.

Maybe we shouldn't be bringing up the use of deadly force in this instance, given the circumstances and age of the enraged 'ol man. The guards who rescued you didn't draw their weapons, did they?
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Old November 17, 2010, 05:44 PM   #30
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuZY1...eature=related
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Old November 17, 2010, 05:47 PM   #31
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I suspect that if you shot the man in a similar circumstance you would be charged, and who know what would happen with the jury?
If I were on the jury I would be hard pressed to consider that the older man with the cane was a deadly threat. You would have to prove that you had a legitimate fear of death or great bodily harm and that you were not able to avoid an attack.

If the person had to use a cane he would, by assumption, be handicapped to the extent he could not pursue or out-maneuver you. If you saw him before he actually attacked you I would assume that you should be able to avoid being hurt badly enough to justify deadly force.

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Old November 17, 2010, 05:50 PM   #32
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Bluesfan, I can attest from personal experience that damage that a cane can do. If you or anyone else does not understand this, check Fairbaine’s (Sp) manual the umbrella drill.

Under the conditions you described the best thing to do is swallow ones pride and beat a hasty retreat. It could be very hard to convince either a criminal or civil jury that you had no choice but to use deadly force to defend yourself from a pathetic old man with a cane.

Is tort litigation starting to look like a viable option, now?
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Old November 17, 2010, 05:59 PM   #33
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In the OTHER thread, the police had already hit the BG with tasers and shotgun-fired bean bags, and he still kept coming. He was described as in his 30's, and large; he obviously had very high pain tolerance. Are you seriously saying you'd want to go hands on with that?
MLeake: I am not particularly brave or skilled. However I would expect a group of police officers to be both skilled and strong and yes, brave.

There are thing which people can do in groups that one person working alone cannot do. One of those things is to gang up on an individual using the strength of numbers.

As I stated I wasn't there. I have seen what happens when people gang up on one person. With only a couple exceptions numbers won.
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Old November 17, 2010, 06:51 PM   #34
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Buzzcook...

Without meaning to sound like a jerk (or, at least, any more like a jerk than I may have, earlier)...

... the OP in the previous thread didn't post a link to the case we were discussing. One thing we do not know, from the info that was provided, is how many police were on the scene. The "group" may have been two officers; we were only told there were officers, not how many; we also don't know ages, genders, and sizes of the officers who were there.

Additionally, we don't know what the original attempt at an arrest was over. If the guy was behaving oddly, and that was the reason for the call, then the officers' reaction might be different than if they were responding to a call of a guy who had just broken somebody's arm with a cane.

So, your point about mobbing could be valid, in that it might have been viable in their situation - but it might not have been; can't say based on what we were given.

And the fact remains, a person can hurt you badly with the first swing.

A factor we haven't really discussed, and one that is always true for cops and might be true for us - if the BG does score a disabling shot with the stick, he has immediate access to a firearm the moment later.
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Old November 17, 2010, 06:59 PM   #35
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One of my favorite "takedowns" by officers...

.... was in Seattle, several years ago. A guy named Tony Allison got into a standoff with SPD in the middle of downtown. He was wielding a katana, and menacing passersby.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/169222...ord_vs_police/

SPD officers were able to set up a perimeter. Allison made a few bluff charges, but backed to his corner when met with chemical sprays, etc. Eventually, the Seattle Fire Department provided a fire truck, and Allison was knocked over with a fire hose blast, then rushed by SPD.

End result: Allison survived, and no officers were injured.

Major difference: Allison was turned back by less than lethal means, each time he tried to close.

Sad comment: SPD received complaints from many citizens over the amount of time they allowed the incident to shut down traffic.
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Old November 17, 2010, 08:05 PM   #36
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One of my favorite "takedowns" by officers...
lol
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Old November 17, 2010, 09:50 PM   #37
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Speaking of juries, it's going to be a slam dunk for the old man's attorney put the guy in the courtroom and "ham it up" as a frail little old guy who can barely walk without his cane, much less threaten anyone with it.

The old man with the cane is not your only opposition here.

Just something else to think about.

--Wag--
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Old November 17, 2010, 10:31 PM   #38
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MLeake: I don't think you're a jerk. We're just coming at it from different perspectives.
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Old November 17, 2010, 11:52 PM   #39
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You know the last thing i am worried about is getting attacked by an old guy with a cane. All you have to do is walk away
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Old November 18, 2010, 12:13 AM   #40
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When I turned to address this person I met with the butt end of a cane about 12 inches from my face and an extremely angry older person on the other end of the cane. I ordered him to put down the cane a advised him not to threaten me. He refused to put down the cane and said that these were not threats and that I was going to pay for what happened in court.
Did you file a felony complaint against him for attempted assault with a deadly weapon?


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Old November 18, 2010, 09:58 AM   #41
TheGoldenState
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Did you file a felony complaint against him for attempted assault with a deadly weapon?
How can waving a cane 1 foot away from someone be an attempted assault, much less an actual assault?


Not being sarcastic, really want to know.
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Old November 18, 2010, 10:46 AM   #42
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How can waving a cane 1 foot away from someone be an attempted assault, much less an actual assault?
Do you understand what assault is?

It is threatening to strike/hit/harm someone.

After a blow is landed is becomes battery.

When you cock your arm and threaten someone with a fist you have committed an assault.

When you land the punch it becomes battery.
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Old November 18, 2010, 10:48 AM   #43
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How can waving a cane 1 foot away from someone be an attempted assault, much less an actual assault?
The usual legal definition of assault is a threat of bodily harm coupled with the apparent means and intent to carry through with the threat.

IMHO threatening someone with a blunt instrument from a distance is certainly assault if the person could readily close the distance and carry through with his/her threat. 1 foot is certainly close enough if the person is free to move.

Remember, assault only requires the actor to make a realistic and plausible threat, not to actually act on it.
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Old November 18, 2010, 01:07 PM   #44
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Blow him away !

JK JK,,,,,,,,,,you would get your but handed to you in court if you
pulled out a gun on a guy with a cane,now if you were on the floor
bloody and beaten well,then I think you can justify use of protection
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Old November 18, 2010, 01:14 PM   #45
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Just a bit of clarification here folks. The definition of "assault" and "battery" varies from state to state.

In Ohio, assault assumes roughly the same definition that other states apply to battery.

Quote:
2903.13 Assault.

(A) No person shall knowingly cause or attempt to cause physical harm to another or to another’s unborn.

(B) No person shall recklessly cause serious physical harm to another or to another’s unborn.

(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of assault, and the court shall sentence the offender as provided in this division and divisions (C)(1), (2), (3), (4), (5), and (6) of this section. Except as otherwise provided in division (C)(1), (2), (3), (4), or (5) of this section, assault is a misdemeanor of the first degree.
In the OP's situation, the most the old man could've been charged with would've been aggravated menacing.

Quote:
2903.21 Aggravated menacing.

(A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person’s unborn, or a member of the other person’s immediate family.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated menacing. Except as otherwise provided in this division, aggravated menacing is a misdemeanor of the first degree.
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Old November 18, 2010, 01:15 PM   #46
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Quote:
Do you understand what assault is?

It is threatening to strike/hit/harm someone.

After a blow is landed is becomes battery.

When you cock your arm and threaten someone with a fist you have committed an assault.

When you land the punch it becomes battery.
Like i said, i was really looking for an answer, not dismissing the comment.

Thanks for clarification.
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Old November 18, 2010, 01:19 PM   #47
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In the OP's situation, the most the old man could've been charged with would've been aggravated menacing.
OK, thanks Capt. Taking your analysis of the charge at face value (I would have course, as a police officer or a prosecutor, charged assault ,which in Ohio covers attempt, my question would then stand, with the above amendment.

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Old November 18, 2010, 02:15 PM   #48
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Perhaps the Issue is Situational Awareness, not

whether you would shoot an old man. Noone disputes that a cane could be a very effective weapon, whether used with skill, luck, or surprise. For that matter, so can a tightly rolled newspaper. From what i read, it seemed that the OP registered the verbal onslaught early on, but the cane was only 12 inches away from his nose before it registered. Had the guy been an old madman instead of an old mad man, i have little doubt the OP would be nursing a large bump on his head or worse. It's a little late to put distance between you and an attacker if your skull is already fractured.

Lesson, if there is one?

Threats can come from unexpected places, at unexpected times, even on the courthouse steps from an octegenarian (however unlikely). It's a practical impossibility to remain in code yellow 24/7, but this thread is a good reminder of why we try. Fortunately, nobody was hurt and it's only a theoretical lesson.
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Old November 18, 2010, 03:15 PM   #49
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Getting closer can be better...
... but if the person has trained at stick fighting, there is a counter to somebody coming inside the swing.
You could also be struck by lightning out in the open.
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Old November 18, 2010, 03:20 PM   #50
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I agree that pumping hot lead into an old man with a cane would be unconscionable.

I would have actually waited until he stuck it into my only good eye.

Of course, then I'd have been blind and unable to shoot...ever again.

Knowing that I'd exercised restraint would have been consoling as I tapped around with my white cane.

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