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Old November 17, 2010, 12:36 AM   #1
Bluesfan
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recently attacked by man with cane

I realize that a similar thread was closed. If the Mods feel the need to close this one no offense will be taken.
About 2 weeks ago when leaving court after a sentancing hearing that did not go well for my client, I exited the court house to talk to my clients wife and family. Behind me I heard one of the family members yelling threats at me.
When I turned to address this person I met with the butt end of a cane about 12 inches from my face and an extremely angry older person on the other end of the cane. I ordered him to put down the cane a advised him not to threaten me. He refused to put down the cane and said that these were not threats and that I was going to pay for what happened in court.
I was about to grab the cane and disarm him when court security came out and diffused the situation.
Since I was leaving the courthouse I did not have my carry pistol with me. However, had this happened on the parking lot,and I had been close to my carry pistol I would have had to make a very difficult choice in a big hurry.
My point is that while this person was much older than I was he "got the drop on me" and I could have been very badly injured.
Please keep in mind that a person who is in a blind rage and has a weapon can hurt you in a second regardless of that persons age or physical condition.
A cane cane be a deadly weapon. I believe that given this persons state of mind and had I been away from courthouse security that force in kind would have been justified.
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Old November 17, 2010, 12:47 AM   #2
lanternlad
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Speaking as a person who carries a cane ( I actually use it - bad knee) I can vouch for the fact that a cane is not an item to scorn. While some are basic wooden or aluminum things, others like my Cold Steel City Stick will knock an attacker on his butt and keep him there. I have used it defensively against wild animals (a P.O'd buck in my yard and a angry stray dog) and just seeing it pointed at them has caused a few would be attackers to think twice. (I carry a gun too, btw). A cane is definitely a deadly weapon. Don't feel that just because a man is crippled and needs to use a cane that he can't mess you up with it.
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Old November 17, 2010, 01:08 AM   #3
Mike38
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I’m sorry, but I just can’t justify pumping hot lead into an old man that’s pointing a cane at me. The way I see it, I could out run a guy that needs a cane. Now I don’t carry a firearm, because I can’t here in the communist state of Illinois. If I could carry, I would, but still doubt I could use a firearm against an old man with a cane, even if he took a swing at me. Don’t they teach in CCW classes to avoid confrontation if at all possible? Up to and including running away?
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Old November 17, 2010, 01:38 AM   #4
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Mike,
Thanks for your reply to my post. The point of my post was not to "pump hot lead" into an old person with a cane.Those are your word not mine. My point was to alert people that threats to your safety can come from unexpected sources. The man that assaulted me had always been very complemetary aas to my representation of this particular client and that his actions were very violent and irrational.
Had I been getting into my car or in an otherwise vunerable position when he decided to act the outcome could have been very different. I am most thankful that the situation was resolved as it was.
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Old November 17, 2010, 01:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
I’m sorry, but I just can’t justify pumping hot lead into an old man that’s pointing a cane at me. The way I see i
Everyone chooses their own destiny. I for one, agree with you, and hole punching an old guy shaking his cane is not in mine.

Quote:
The man that assaulted me had always been very complemetary aas to my representation of this particular client and that his actions were very violent and irrational.
Verbally assaulted?

vvv

Quote:
When I turned to address this person I met with the butt end of a cane about 12 inches from my face and an extremely angry older person on the other end of the cane. I ordered him to put down the cane a advised him not to threaten me. He refused to put down the cane and said that these were not threats and that I was going to pay for what happened in court.
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Old November 17, 2010, 02:58 AM   #6
Amin Parker
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I agree attacks can come from anywhere. I however think that an elderly person with a cane attacking you allows you options that an able bodied attacker would not.

That being said over here we have the disparity of force theory. In the event of a shooting, the courts will consider the size and weapon of the attacker, as well as age etc.

One would have a lot of explaining to do if a situation like this escalates into a shooting.

You ok, you did the right thing. Lay charges of intimidation/assault against the old guy
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Old November 17, 2010, 05:58 AM   #7
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Your honor, it was no ordinary cane, it was a "Cold Steel City Stick".

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old November 17, 2010, 06:58 AM   #8
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City stick, very good defensive/offensive weapon. I have had one for years, ideal for plane travel.

Sounds like an irate old guy who had the cane in his hand, so waving it in your face was just because it was in his hand. If an attack was in the books, a slash into the knee from behind would have been one of the first indications you were under attack, or the side of the head.

Normally you would think a brief case would have been in the Lawyers hand, a weapon. Most untrained individuals, using a cane, or club, swing back to strike, stepping forward, into the swing makes for an easy disarm.

Guns are only good for shooting, otherwise tie up your strong hand.

Not a good position to be in, more than one moral supporter makes for a bad scene.
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Old November 17, 2010, 07:04 AM   #9
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Brit...

.... you should check out Shindai Aikikai, near Princeton and John Young Parkway. I have a feeling you would hit it off with Hooker Sensei...
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Old November 17, 2010, 07:33 AM   #10
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I seriously doubt that I would draw my pistol if an elderly man threatened me with a cane. But, my reasoning is a little different. It is quicker and easier for me to disarm the old man and take his cane away than it is for me to draw my pistol and shoot him (that's right, if I'm going to draw my pistol, I am going to shoot him, "pump him full of lead" or whatever else someone might call it).

Too often folks think that just because they are carrying a gun, the quickest easiest thing to do if someone threatens or attacks you with a weapon is to pull your weapon and shoot the attacker. I've practiced drills where an attacker comes up on you or even sneaks up on you and points a gun or knife point blank at your chest, head, etc. In this drill, we used two different techniques to eliminate the threat - one did not involve drawing your holstered weapon; the other did involve drawing your holstered weapon. After doing this drill many times and watching others do it as well, I concluded that trying to draw your weapon and put down the attacker was, by far, the inferior approach. FWIW, the age ranges of people participating in this exercise were from 40 to 60. Age didn't matter, and we timed each drill with a stopwatch.
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Old November 17, 2010, 07:40 AM   #11
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Well.. a person who carries a cane because of an injury and uses the cane for support (Example:TV House character) compared to someone who carries a cane as a style piece with no visible signs of a handicap , are two different encounters.

I do not want to go to court and explain why i couldn't escape from a person with a cane, and had no other choice but to kill him. Now.. if the person uses the cane with psychical aggression of haymakers or wild swings with no signs of limited mobility and i couldn't escape, confined, cornered, and in fear of my life... i shoot.
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Old November 17, 2010, 07:58 AM   #12
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Draw vs disarm vs evade

First, I think we are all agreed that if somebody actually requires a cane, and is obviously mobility-impaired, then our preference is simply to outdistance them.

(This assumes we aren't out with our elderly parents, who might be equally mobility-impaired; or otherwise anchored to the scene - could be out with small kids, whatever.)

Second, as far as Skans' comments on attempting to draw vs attempting to disarm - it's possible to do both. Not sure, based on his post, if they tried a combination of the two, or just draw vs disarm.

I've noticed that a lot of people tend to fixate on one hand or the other, when they attempt strikes or disarms. I've also noticed that a lot of people expect us to do the same thing. This is why I always try to use both hands, often doing different things; sometimes, I'll throw a knee, foot, elbow, or head technique into the mix.

The other thing I've noticed people tend to do is to either use their hand(s), or else move their bodies. For some reason, doing both at one time really throws people off rythm.

If you learn to move your feet and hips, change distances and positions on the BG, while using one hand to deflect/strike and the other to draw, you might be surprised at how quickly a scenario can be reversed.

If you learn to throw strikes that also achieve blocks, instead of just either striking or blocking, that will increase your speed and your ability to take the BG off balance, while you avoid getting hit.

Example, vs right hook or haymaker, I throw a straight left to the face, while moving forward and to the right; on the inside, center track, my left arm is positioned to passively foul and block his right, while my left fist snaps his head back or makes him duck. Meanwhile, my shift forward and off-angle means that even if his punch (or cane strike) comes around, it will land well away from his target spot, and so it won't have nearly as much force. At the same time, my right hand is either reaching up around the back of his head, to grab his jaw and twist back over his shoulder; or else it's grabbing his left arm for a takedown; or else it's reaching back to my strong-side holster; my right leg may be positioning for a sweep across my body through the back of his left leg, or if I'm moving more in a line than an arc my left leg is setting up for an O Soto Gari.

Note: all of this happens in about a second, maybe two.

Usual result on the mat is that the other guy goes to the floor, and I have time to move away a bit. If I'm drawing my own weapon, this is a huge advantage. If I want to run away, it's also a huge advantage.

Oh, one other thing - by moving my body, instead of just my hands, I accomplish a couple things.

1) I am not where he expected me to be when he started his movment; if he hits, he doesn't hit in his sweet spot; to hit me, he has to move, and will probably give up some or most of his balance.

2) My strikes and sweeps are not just powered by my pecs, lats, and deltoids; they are now powered by the momentum of 205lbs moving in a focused manner, and generate a lot of force for minimal effort.
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Old November 17, 2010, 09:54 AM   #13
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If you carry a hard sided briefcase it's a good weapon. My friend knocked out a BG with one swing with his !!
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Old November 17, 2010, 10:15 AM   #14
MrWesson
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I would say it depends on the age of the person. If it is a barely mobile elderly man retreating seems easy enough. I would much rather run from a situation than defend myself.
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Old November 17, 2010, 11:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
I’m sorry, but I just can’t justify pumping hot lead into an old man that’s pointing a cane at me
Same here! No reason for it. A cane can easily be disarmed, or one can easily outdistance the reach of a cane quicker than one can draw an pump out unjustified hot lead on an old man/woman.
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Old November 17, 2010, 11:25 AM   #16
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1) Escape is often the best option in any case, but it may or may not be available.

2) Most old people with canes are just old people with canes. Not all of them, though. I can think of a few people that I know, personally, in the 65-70 bracket that I would NOT want to try to disarm. It would be interesting to see some younger guy think it would be easy, and make the attempt, but for 95% of those younger guys the experience would, at best, be very painful.

3) In this thread, the OP's scenario would not be a good case for drawing a weapon. OTOH, I also would not recommend trying a stare-down with a guy who is waving a stick in your face. Either move away, or take away the stick. Moving away makes more sense, since in this case the old man is mobility limited, allowing good odds of escape, and the amount of force required to take the stick away could very easily injure most older people.

4) Not everybody who wields a cane is old; not everybody who wields a cane is mobility limited. Assumptions can lead to the hurt locker, quickly.
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Old November 17, 2010, 11:33 AM   #17
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As MLeake points out, moving away isn't always an option. Of course that's your first best choice when available, but it may not be available.

A cane is nothing more and nothing less than a refined version of the most common murder implement in human history. It is a deadly weapon, and a single blow to the head or neck can kill.

I know a very accomplished martial artist who uses a cane for his bad knee. This old guy can and will kill you with his cane if you threaten him, and unless you've done a lot of stick work and are very lucky, you won't be able to take his weapon away before he does what he set out to do with it.

Is every old guy like that? Heck no! But they are out there. And the cane is a deadly weapon in the hands of a determined assailant.

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Old November 17, 2010, 12:41 PM   #18
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I think your situation must be very dire before shooting someone attacking with a cane. Tough call.
That said, I have made myself a couple canes even though I do not need one for walking assistance.
One is made with a 1" hickory shaft. The handle is an antique tip from a horse hame made of brass. The head is quite heavy and the shaft adds weight. It is shorter than most canes, I'm not very tall and it fits me. I have dubbed it "my New Orleans walking stick". I guarantee it can be a very formidable DEFENSIVE weapon. I practice occasionally with it and have studied a book on stick fighting. If needed, I would probably first go for the shins, then the knees and then, if still needed, the head.
As for being a good assault weapon, I don't think so. Gimmie something with a trigger.
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Old November 17, 2010, 12:45 PM   #19
MLeake
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The only difference between a defensive and offensive weapon...

... is in the intent of the user.

That's it.

A deadly weapon is a deadly weapon. Just because it may not be used to its full potential, does not mean it lacks the potential.
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Old November 17, 2010, 01:15 PM   #20
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Four years ago on our honeymoon, my husband and I bought a couple of steel-tipped walking sticks. My vision is poor, and depth perception between about three and seven to ten feet is nonexistent. When I'm walking across or hiking on uneven ground, I *need* that stick.

I'm also (barely) under 50 years of age, not otherwise handicapped, and perfectly capable of using that stick as a deadly weapon. It would be my first choice when dealing with certain kinds of aggressive animals, and I also wouldn't hesitate to use it to fend off a determined attacker who was getting too close. That wouldn't make me a threat to anybody who wasn't attacking me, any more than the gun I carry makes me a threat to anybody who isn't attacking me. However, that same stick in an attacker's hands would definitely be a deadly weapon -- capable of causing severe injury or death.

I have a couple of points here. First, don't assume that an elderly or handicapped person is incapable of posing a threat -- there are different kinds and levels of handicaps. Second, don't assume that a heavy cane or walking stick can't be used as a weapon. (And especially not if it's steel-tipped or has a point, as my walking stick does.)
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Old November 17, 2010, 02:10 PM   #21
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If you get very close to him the cane becomes useless.

It is pretty hard to swing a cane and hit someone with any force if they are just a few inches away.
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Old November 17, 2010, 02:52 PM   #22
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And don't even get me started on those who brazenly go around with their High-Capacity Assault EAWs! (Evil Aluminum Walkers)



I digress, sorry, but I had to say something stupid. I will shut up now.
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Old November 17, 2010, 03:00 PM   #23
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Getting closer can be better...

... but if the person has trained at stick fighting, there is a counter to somebody coming inside the swing.

IE, check the swing, and convert it from circular to a linear, pommel strike attack to the face or throat.

This is a fun one to do on the mat, with padded weapons. Generally speaking, the strike gets through, and the person trying to close on the stick goes over backwards.
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Old November 17, 2010, 03:01 PM   #24
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By the way...

... sticks are good for more than just circular and linear striking. They are also good for trips, and also for arm and joint locks and dislocations. Oh, yeah, they can be used for some nasty chokes, too.
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Old November 17, 2010, 04:04 PM   #25
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This type of discussion devolves down to yes or no answers to highly subjective situations.

Everyone has to make their own decision on when a situation reaches a point where they fear for their lives and when deadly force is appropriate.
Simply saying "a man with a cane" doesn't do it.

From the description given by the OP I don't think deadly force or even the threat of deadly force would have been appropriate.

BTW in answer to a question of what the officers in the closed thread should have done instead of deadly force; there is a technique called mobbing. Mobbing is basically several officers dog piling the non-compliant offender. The cane would not be effective while being grappled by 3 or more officers.

But once again I wasn't there and the guy that got shot might have been the Bruce Lee of cane wielders. I tend to doubt it though.
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