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Old November 16, 2010, 12:31 PM   #1
8shot357
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A Man threatens/attacks you with a wooded cane?

Should you shoot him in self defense? Or should you have the right to shoot him I should ask?
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Old November 16, 2010, 12:35 PM   #2
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Depends...

... do you think deadly force is a reasonable response against an object that could crack your skull, crush your eye socket, break collarbones and arms?

If so, then yes, you could be justified in shooting the man with the wooden cane.

For that matter, there are folks who carry canes or walking sticks not because they need them, but because it's a legal way for Joe Citizen to carry a weapon around all day.

Now, if the guy is hobbling over on one foot, while trying to wield a cane, then I'd suggest a quick retreat instead of drawing and firing.
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Old November 16, 2010, 12:41 PM   #3
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i agree with mleak. I can see were it could be a deadly weapon,but and big on the but,, I think a hasty retreat would work just fine in that case.
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Old November 16, 2010, 12:47 PM   #4
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A cane can be very deadly in the hands of some one that knows how to use it, just like any other weapon.
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Old November 16, 2010, 12:53 PM   #5
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When my granddad got senile he'd occasionally hit my brother an I with his cane, thinking we were strangers.

We didn't shoot him.
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Old November 16, 2010, 01:10 PM   #6
8shot357
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Quote:
MLeake

... do you think deadly force is a reasonable response against an object that could crack your skull, crush your eye socket, break collarbones and arms?

If so, then yes, you could be justified in shooting the man with the wooden cane.

Thanks for the response's.

I was asking for a reason. Metro Vegas Police just shot and killed a guy ("Big guy in his 30s") that was attacking "them" with a wooden cane. They tased him twice and shot him with a bean bag or bean bags, but he still attacked them when they shot (One shot) him yesterday morning.

I withheld that info for a reason, to see your unbias responses. I wasn't there, but it just sounded extreme to shoot the guy.
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Old November 16, 2010, 01:32 PM   #7
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They tased him twice and shot him with a bean bag or bean bags, but he still attacked them when they shot
Doesn't sound extreme to me. Sounds like they went through the use of force pyramid/continuum.
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Old November 16, 2010, 01:37 PM   #8
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hoytinak is right. They gave this guy every chance to stop trying to harm them and he informed them that he would do everything in his power to hurt them. Lesson? Don't try to hurt the police.
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Old November 16, 2010, 01:37 PM   #9
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I wasn't there, but it just sounded extreme to shoot the guy.
Yep, you weren't.

Shooting someone attacking you with a cane depends on the circumstances...big difference between an enraged big guy who already has been subjected to non lethal force and refuses to stop, and a 80 year old Grandma poking you in a sensitive area.

Now on the other hand years ago I knew a pair of somewhat badass brothers, starting at 6'5", 270, young, dumb and full of testosterone. They lived with their "Nana" who was probably 70 and all of 5 feet tall with coke bottle glasses. If she got mad at them, she either took her cane to them, or a broomstick. Major offenses got the cane, to wit:not eating your peas.

So these jokers get picked up for a bar fight, charged with disorderly conduct. The Judge, an old Polish Guy from the old school of judging is arraigning them when Granny hobbles up. Judge asks her who she is, and she says I'm their Grandma and these are "my babies"...she asks the Judge to (paraphrase) "let me take my babies home and I'll make sure they behave", hobbles a step back and pokes the nearest one in the head with her cane, his response was "Owwww Nana, I'm sorry", the Judge bursts out laughing, dismisses the charges and as they walk out the door, she keeps poking them with her cane saying stuff like "Wait till I get you boys home" while smacking them with her cane...to the cries please of "Ow Nana stop we will be good".....

So if you saw Nana outside wacking these guys, would you shoot her

Fondly

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Old November 16, 2010, 01:54 PM   #10
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I can pretty much out run some one who needs a cane.
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Old November 16, 2010, 01:58 PM   #11
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8Shot357...

... waaaaaaaay back in '91, the Navy decided for some odd reason to run me through Security training. (Fuel money was short for flight training back then, so there were gaps between stages of training, and students would get randomly assigned into temp jobs; mine was working at Base Security with the Master at Arms force.)

The Continuum of Force, as we were taught at that time, went something like this:

Level 1) Verbal
Level 2) Cuffs
Level 3) Hands-on if necessary
Level 4) Chemical / Less-than-lethal
Level 5) Baton / PR24
Level 6) Firearm

Security forces were not expected to match levels of force with suspects. They were expected to use a level of force one above that used by suspects.

So, if a suspect wanted to go hands on with a patrolman, it would have been normal for the patrolman to immediately go to pepper spray, not grapple with the suspect. (We didn't have Tasers, or those might have been the tool of choice for that scenario.)

The Baton or PR24 was considered to be lethal force; we were trained to strike long bones if possible, because they heal better after having been broken, and a good strike with a baton is likely to break bone.

A suspect who pulled a club or knife should expect to be countered with a firearm, because that is the next level up in the continuum.

Back in '91, we would NOT have been expected to attempt to use a spray against a club or cudgel (which is what the cane was, in your example). If anything, the cops in your story used LOWER levels of force than DOD would have allowed security to use, at least back at that time.
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Old November 16, 2010, 02:00 PM   #12
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kraigwy and buzzcook....

.... you guys are funny; I did address the possibility of dealing with somebody who's actually crippled up.

However, I also indicated that this might not be the case.

A LOT of my martial arts buddies have been known to carry canes or walking sticks; these are some of the only weapons you can LEGALLY take on an airliner, for instance, or walk around NYC with.

The point being, that cane might primarily be a weapon, not a walking aid. Assuming that any assailant with a cane actually needs the cane to a walk with could be a very, very bad assumption.
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Old November 16, 2010, 02:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Wildalaska

and pokes the nearest one in the head with her cane, his response was "Owwww Nana, I'm sorry", the Judge bursts out laughing, dismisses the charges and as they walk out the door, she keeps poking them with her cane saying stuff like "Wait till I get you boys home" while smacking them with her cane...to the cries please of "Ow Nana stop we will be good".....

So if you saw Nana outside wacking these guys, would you shoot her
Thanks Mr. Wild, keep wearing those Kitty Thongs.

A lot of great responses, more than adequate, it just hard to swallow when somebody could have just tackled him down to the ground instead of taking his life. What are these guy's, girls? It's not like he just jumped on there butt's all of a sudden and got them off guard.

Yes, he could have harmed a LEO, but I don't see it as live threatening, which would have constituted a proper reaction of shooting him with lethal force.

I guess that's my point.

I don't know, I just don't know, and maybe nobody will ever know. In fact I feel sorry for the person that had to make that decision to take another persons life, may we all never have to be there.

TBS, that's nature's way of weeding out the stupid.
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Old November 16, 2010, 02:31 PM   #14
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You have to different views here; the Police's justified use of force and what a civilian should do.

In Krav Maga, we're taught to first flee the scene (get away if possible, then call the COPs). Now if you're trapped or the "cane wielding man" hits you first, then of course, fight back with lethal force. But if this is an old man or old lady, then a self defensive shot is not justified. It all boils down to who is the superior strength in a defensive siutation.
If a 90 lb, 4ft 9in druggie woman came at you with a crow-bar, would you shoot her? Or would you use your strength and knock her to the ground?
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Old November 16, 2010, 02:33 PM   #15
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8Shot357...

... in the example you cited, officers tried Tasers and bean bags. Doesn't sound like they chose to close on the BG, sounds like the BG chose to close on them.

If the police had forced the issue, when they could have waited it out, I might see your point. However, since it would appear they were trying to keep the guy back, and subdued, and he attacked, based on the information you've provided they were legally and morally justified in firing.

Could I take the cudgel away from an assailant? I actually have decent odds, since I've trained at that sort of thing for years. But, if I thought a guy were really trying to hurt me with a blunt object, and if I were armed, the only way I'd attempt a disarm is if he were already too close for me to draw. If I had time and space to clear a weapon, I'd shoot, just like your police did - and I would be willing to bet I've had more training at disarming a melee-armed opponent than your police have had.
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Old November 16, 2010, 02:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Yes, he could have harmed a LEO, but I don't see it as live threatening, which would have constituted a proper reaction of shooting him with lethal force.
I don't think the Police's reaction was justified-I wasn't there, but based off what you said, I think there could of been other methods of disarming an "under-armed" attacker. A man with a cane vs several officers with tasers, OC spray, bean bags and firearms?? And they killed him?

It just makes you wonder why some Police are allowed to graduate from Academy.
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Old November 16, 2010, 03:06 PM   #17
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It just makes you wonder why some Police are allowed to graduate from Academy.
I think alll u need is a G.E.D. I hope I selled that right.
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Old November 16, 2010, 03:17 PM   #18
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Ok thesheepdog, what methods beyond Tasers and bean bags (already attempted by the police and shrugged off by the BG) would you have attempted vs a large, 30ish man who was attacking with a length of wood?

If you want to run down the officers, at least tell us what better thing you would have done.

Same to you, 8Shot357. If you want to criticize, try offering a concrete, practical alternative.
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Old November 16, 2010, 03:31 PM   #19
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A healthy, strong man able to wielding a cane would probably have me run, put some distance between us and hope he goes away. This is tough because id would really depend on BG size and perceived skill at using that cane. I think I might draw if there were to big of a size difference and hope that would end the confrontation or buy me time to get away.
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Old November 16, 2010, 03:39 PM   #20
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Someone comes at me with a cane ,and he's not 90 years old,he just might get shot.This isnt 1890 so i figure he's not trying to be dapper.Cold Steel makes not just the polypropylene canes that your skull will crack before they do,but the sword canes with a 25 inch blade.Would you defend yourself against someone attacking you with a baseball bat or a cutlass?
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Old November 16, 2010, 03:40 PM   #21
8shot357
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Quote:
MLeake

Ok thesheepdog, what methods beyond Tasers and bean bags (already attempted by the police and shrugged off by the BG) would you have attempted vs a large, 30ish man who was attacking with a length of wood?

If you want to run down the officers, at least tell us what better thing you would have done.

Same to you, 8Shot357. If you want to criticize, try offering a concrete, practical alternative.
Well, like I said, "I don't know, I just don't know." I just wonder though. And I'm not trying to be a poet.
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Old November 16, 2010, 03:59 PM   #22
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Well, that didn't take long. It went from "is deadly force justified against a cane" to a brief, secondhand account of a news article, to Monday morning quarterbacking and cop bashing.

If someone can come up with a reputable link to a detailed article, feel free to restart this, but this one's done.

Closed.
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