H335 and 223?????

bullspotter · November 15, 2010, 12:44 AM

Im looking to switch from H4895 to H335 for my 223 loads. Was wondering if i will need a mag primer for the H335 as its spherical powder. running CCI 400s now. I have looked in my books and cannot find anything about a mag primer with the H335, but did find some on the BLC-2 saying it needed a mag primer because its spherical, so i assume the H335 will also??? Maybe no???

oakfloor · November 15, 2010, 01:03 AM

The best hunting load for my .223 autoloader was H355/55Gr bullet. I dont remember useing mag primers and I dont think there needed IIRC.

rjrivero · November 15, 2010, 02:26 AM

H335 works fine with standard small rifle primers. My AR likes 25gr under a standard 55gr ball rounds.

FlyFish · November 15, 2010, 08:27 AM

Quote:

H335 works fine with standard small rifle primers. My AR likes 25gr under a standard 55gr ball rounds.

That's my standard load as well.

4runnerman · November 15, 2010, 09:10 AM

I have to disagree. H-335 was meant to be used with a mag primer. I only use rem 7 1/2 bench rest primers. I do beleive H-335 is also the best 223 powder you can buy. I say to those that don't use mag primers.try it once and see your groups tighten up,in most cases a big difference.

demigod · November 15, 2010, 12:48 PM

How hot is 25 grains of H-335 with a 55 grain FMJ? I'd like to try some H-335 next time I pick up some powder.

4runnerman · November 15, 2010, 01:17 PM

Demigod. How hot i can't answer,but my extreamly accurate load out of a Savage Edge was

Hornady 55 V-Max
25.5 H-335
2.26 COL
Rem 7 1/2 primers

If i remember right it was just over 2900/fps. One hole at 100 yards and 3/4 inch groups at 300 yards

kraigwy · November 15, 2010, 01:30 PM

I load tons of 223s w/ < 55 grn bullets ( I like RL 15 for heavier, 77-80 grns). Its extremely accurate.

But

There is no need to use magnum primers with H335.

4runnerman · November 15, 2010, 01:56 PM

agreed no need to use mag primer ,but to get full potential of 335 you should. It was desinged to be used with one.

Kraigwy--RL-15?. That is what i have been using ,It is very accurate,but now i have heard that H-335 (which i thought was not for heavier bullets). seems to be even more accurate. Oh Well just another LB of powder to stack in the pile.Ha HA

I only wish i could sell some of my oops'es in powder i have piled up. Was nearsighted first round and have a LB of 332 at home,Not sure what thats good for.Loaded about 20 rounds with that and decided that was out. Varget and RL-15,RL-17 and H-335. Piling up now,soon i will get it to just one powder,one bullet and one primer.

Clark · November 15, 2010, 02:11 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

223 55 gr max published load Hodgdon 25.3 gr H335

With non magnum small rifle primers:
30 gr primer pocket starts to grow.
31 gr primer pocket grows .003"

What does it all mean?
It is not necessary, nor desirable, to use magnum small rifle primers with 223 and H335.

Snakedriver · November 15, 2010, 02:17 PM

Quote:

4Runnerman:

Hornady 55 V-Max
25.5 H-335
2.26 COL
Rem 7 1/2 primers

This is my choice with H335 as well. Very accurate and will recreate factory loadings.

I don't usually worry about "magnum" primers in a low volume case .223 Rem.. I've used standard small rifle primers for about 30 years in .223 without any problems. Some people will say the Remington 7 1/2 is the equivalent of a magnum primer and if so, that's fine too.

I've also used H4895 an W748 with great success.

4runnerman · November 15, 2010, 02:20 PM

Clark--Where did you get this info from?. im very courious,because i used to shoot 55 gn NWCP bullets behind 26.4 gn H-335 at 3300/fps. With no pressure issues to brass or primer pockets.This brass has been loaded 12 times with no issues

demigod · November 15, 2010, 02:39 PM

Hodgdon "max" loadings are notoriously on the absurdly low side. Seeing that they show 25.3 as max makes me feel good about 25.0 as a starting test load.

Poodleshooter · November 15, 2010, 03:53 PM

Is there any loadable .223 Remington powder that requires a magnum small rifle primer?
I know Speer used to recommend them in their manuals for certain ball powders, but I've never actually seen anyone else recommend it.

I've shot a lot of WC844 (military equivalent to H335) and WC846 (military W748 or BallC2) and have never had the slightest hint of ignition trouble.

eviltravis · November 15, 2010, 04:06 PM

Hornady 60 grain v- max
Cci 400
24 grains h-335
Whatever brass I can shoehorn it all into

This all adds up to magical accuracy out of the AR I built for varminting. The 1:8 twist in the barrel does better with the 60's than it does with the 55's.

kraigwy · November 15, 2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Clark--Where did you get this info from?. im very courious,because i used to shoot 55 gn NWCP bullets behind 26.4 gn H-335 at 3300/fps. With no pressure issues to brass or primer pockets.This brass has been loaded 12 times with no issues

4Runnerman:

All guns are differant. I have one 223 that gets pierced primers with 26 grns, where as 26 grns is a mild load in others.

That's why I standardised 25.5 grns of H335 because it works in all my guns.

When it comes to guns and ammo, one size does not fit all.

4runnerman · November 15, 2010, 06:10 PM

All guns are differant. I have one 223 that gets pierced primers with 26 grns, where as 26 grns is a mild load in others.

That's why I standardised 25.5 grns of H335 because it works in all my guns.

When it comes to guns and ammo, one size does not fit all.

This i understand,but he was making statements of primer pockets growing and such. I was just courious as to were he found this info from.

I am new to reloading myself this year for rifle. I do have over 6000 rounds under my belt this year alone,So im still in the search mode for expirence from all sources.
I very much pay attention to what you say more so than others,because of your expirence though. I also work with a comp shooter in the local store here too. He did actually take first place this year and has been kinda tutoring me along the way.
I keep joking withhim that in like 100 years i will be ready to take him on

This guy shoots 300 yards and can cover 5 shots with his finger tip. He is also the one i shoot golf balls and eggs with at 600 yards.

Dave R · November 16, 2010, 11:53 PM

FYI Speer No. 13 specifies CCI magnum primers for H335 in .223. I use WSR primers, which are marketed compliant with both standard and magnum primers. Works fine.

Quote:

How hot is 25 grains of H-335 with a 55 grain FMJ? I'd like to try some H-335 next time I pick up some powder.

Its not hot, in that its below max. Its a favorite load at AR15.com's reloading setion.

Clark · November 17, 2010, 02:29 AM

Speer 13: "We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington model 788. The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."

I think you could make a better case for Big Foot, UFOs, and global warming than you can for what Speer 13 says about 30-30 case strength.

At least there is some doubt in the other nut case ideas. Speer 13 is too easily dis-proven.

What measurable good are they going to get from a magnum primer in the little 223 case?
I can tell you what harm.. an extra grain's worth of pressure without an extra grain's worth of velocity.
That's a poor trade off.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I am putting 34 gr W748 220 gr in a Sav 219L 30-30 for 83kpsi.
I have tried a number of brands of brass, and that brass must have not read Speer 13, because it has long brass life.

I am shooting 223 above max published loads because the .223 got SAAMI registered at 55 kpsi, but the 1950 .222 Win case head has long brass life at 75kpsi.

Sevens · November 17, 2010, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Clark--Where did you get this info from?. im very courious

I'm surprised he posted again in this thread and didn't answer your question.

You should search his posts -- he buys guns and runs them to the outer limits, completely intent on destroying them all in the search for data and knowledge.

Many of his posts can be alarming to the casual visitor to this forum until you get a feel for what he does.

I'm not sure I'll ever have occasion to get real-world utility from his findings, but I always find them very, very interesting.

mapsjanhere · November 17, 2010, 08:48 AM

Yes, Speer wants magnum primers for all H 335 loads.
Does someone have the Hornady entry for the 52 gr Hornady HPBT bullet and H335 (want to compare to the Speer entry of 24.5 - 26.5 H335 at 2.20 coal).

demigod · November 17, 2010, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Its not hot, in that its below max.

Great. That's what I'm after! I'm not a fan of loading really hot practice ammo... it just doesn't make sense to me.

Quote:

Its a favorite load at AR15.com's reloading setion.

Despite that.... I plan to try it anyway!!

Clark · November 17, 2010, 09:35 AM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Range report from 8-19-2003, from me visiting the Tacoma Sportman Club range in Puyallup, members only range.

Hodgdon website: 223 Rem, H335, 25.3 GR. 55 GR. SPR SP, 2.200", 24" barrel, 3203 fps, 49,300 CUP

Test: Ruger #1 [the standard 26" #1, not the 24" varmint model], CCI 400 small rifle primers, LC brass once fired processed from Scharch and prepped by me, 55 gr Vmax moly, H335

pic left to right: unfired, 28, 29, 30, and 31 gr.

unfired, extractor groove .329"
28 gr, extractor groove .329", 11% overload 69 kpsi
29 gr, extractor groove .329", 15% overload 80kpsi
30 gr, extractor groove .3295", 19% overload 92kpsi
31 gr, extractor groove .3320", 23% overload 106kpsi

demigod · November 17, 2010, 11:10 AM

Wow! I didn't know you could get that much powder in a 5.56/223 case!

Poodleshooter · November 17, 2010, 11:38 AM

If it can be done, Clark will do it.
Next time you dump H335 in a 223 case, lightly touch the case against a running tumbler. It will settle the powder column down. Works well for powder/cartridge combos that are almost always compressed loads (Varget and .223!)
An old time black powder style drop tube works well too.

November 15, 2010, 01:30 PM	#8
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I load tons of 223s w/ < 55 grn bullets ( I like RL 15 for heavier, 77-80 grns). Its extremely accurate. But There is no need to use magnum primers with H335. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

November 15, 2010, 01:56 PM	#9
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	agreed no need to use mag primer ,but to get full potential of 335 you should. It was desinged to be used with one. Kraigwy--RL-15?. That is what i have been using ,It is very accurate,but now i have heard that H-335 (which i thought was not for heavier bullets). seems to be even more accurate. Oh Well just another LB of powder to stack in the pile.Ha HA I only wish i could sell some of my oops'es in powder i have piled up. Was nearsighted first round and have a LB of 332 at home,Not sure what thats good for.Loaded about 20 rounds with that and decided that was out. Varget and RL-15,RL-17 and H-335. Piling up now,soon i will get it to just one powder,one bullet and one primer. Last edited by 4runnerman; November 15, 2010 at 02:01 PM.

November 15, 2010, 02:20 PM	#12
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Clark--Where did you get this info from?. im very courious,because i used to shoot 55 gn NWCP bullets behind 26.4 gn H-335 at 3300/fps. With no pressure issues to brass or primer pockets.This brass has been loaded 12 times with no issues Last edited by 4runnerman; November 15, 2010 at 02:28 PM.

November 15, 2010, 06:10 PM	#17
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	All guns are differant. I have one 223 that gets pierced primers with 26 grns, where as 26 grns is a mild load in others. That's why I standardised 25.5 grns of H335 because it works in all my guns. When it comes to guns and ammo, one size does not fit all. This i understand,but he was making statements of primer pockets growing and such. I was just courious as to were he found this info from. I am new to reloading myself this year for rifle. I do have over 6000 rounds under my belt this year alone,So im still in the search mode for expirence from all sources. I very much pay attention to what you say more so than others,because of your expirence though. I also work with a comp shooter in the local store here too. He did actually take first place this year and has been kinda tutoring me along the way. I keep joking withhim that in like 100 years i will be ready to take him on This guy shoots 300 yards and can cover 5 shots with his finger tip. He is also the one i shoot golf balls and eggs with at 600 yards. Last edited by 4runnerman; November 15, 2010 at 06:36 PM.

November 17, 2010, 08:48 AM	#21
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Yes, Speer wants magnum primers for all H 335 loads. Does someone have the Hornady entry for the 52 gr Hornady HPBT bullet and H335 (want to compare to the Speer entry of 24.5 - 26.5 H335 at 2.20 coal). __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

November 15, 2010, 12:44 AM	#1
bullspotter Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 308	H335 and 223????? Im looking to switch from H4895 to H335 for my 223 loads. Was wondering if i will need a mag primer for the H335 as its spherical powder. running CCI 400s now. I have looked in my books and cannot find anything about a mag primer with the H335, but did find some on the BLC-2 saying it needed a mag primer because its spherical, so i assume the H335 will also??? Maybe no???

November 15, 2010, 01:03 AM	#2
oakfloor Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2009 Posts: 111	The best hunting load for my .223 autoloader was H355/55Gr bullet. I dont remember useing mag primers and I dont think there needed IIRC.

November 15, 2010, 02:26 AM	#3
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	H335 works fine with standard small rifle primers. My AR likes 25gr under a standard 55gr ball rounds.

November 15, 2010, 09:10 AM	#5
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	I have to disagree. H-335 was meant to be used with a mag primer. I only use rem 7 1/2 bench rest primers. I do beleive H-335 is also the best 223 powder you can buy. I say to those that don't use mag primers.try it once and see your groups tighten up,in most cases a big difference.

November 15, 2010, 12:48 PM	#6
demigod Junior member Join Date: March 13, 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 1,129	How hot is 25 grains of H-335 with a 55 grain FMJ? I'd like to try some H-335 next time I pick up some powder.

November 15, 2010, 01:17 PM	#7
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Demigod. How hot i can't answer,but my extreamly accurate load out of a Savage Edge was Hornady 55 V-Max 25.5 H-335 2.26 COL Rem 7 1/2 primers If i remember right it was just over 2900/fps. One hole at 100 yards and 3/4 inch groups at 300 yards

November 15, 2010, 02:11 PM	#10
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. 223 55 gr max published load Hodgdon 25.3 gr H335 With non magnum small rifle primers: 30 gr primer pocket starts to grow. 31 gr primer pocket grows .003" What does it all mean? It is not necessary, nor desirable, to use magnum small rifle primers with 223 and H335.

November 15, 2010, 02:39 PM	#13
demigod Junior member Join Date: March 13, 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 1,129	Hodgdon "max" loadings are notoriously on the absurdly low side. Seeing that they show 25.3 as max makes me feel good about 25.0 as a starting test load.

November 15, 2010, 03:53 PM	#14
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Is there any loadable .223 Remington powder that requires a magnum small rifle primer? I know Speer used to recommend them in their manuals for certain ball powders, but I've never actually seen anyone else recommend it. I've shot a lot of WC844 (military equivalent to H335) and WC846 (military W748 or BallC2) and have never had the slightest hint of ignition trouble.

November 15, 2010, 04:06 PM	#15
eviltravis Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2001 Location: montana Posts: 283	Hornady 60 grain v- max Cci 400 24 grains h-335 Whatever brass I can shoehorn it all into This all adds up to magical accuracy out of the AR I built for varminting. The 1:8 twist in the barrel does better with the 60's than it does with the 55's.

November 17, 2010, 02:29 AM	#19
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Speer 13: "We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington model 788. The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure." I think you could make a better case for Big Foot, UFOs, and global warming than you can for what Speer 13 says about 30-30 case strength. At least there is some doubt in the other nut case ideas. Speer 13 is too easily dis-proven. What measurable good are they going to get from a magnum primer in the little 223 case? I can tell you what harm.. an extra grain's worth of pressure without an extra grain's worth of velocity. That's a poor trade off. CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. I am putting 34 gr W748 220 gr in a Sav 219L 30-30 for 83kpsi. I have tried a number of brands of brass, and that brass must have not read Speer 13, because it has long brass life. I am shooting 223 above max published loads because the .223 got SAAMI registered at 55 kpsi, but the 1950 .222 Win case head has long brass life at 75kpsi.

November 17, 2010, 11:10 AM	#24
demigod Junior member Join Date: March 13, 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 1,129	Wow! I didn't know you could get that much powder in a 5.56/223 case!

November 17, 2010, 11:38 AM	#25
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	If it can be done, Clark will do it. Next time you dump H335 in a 223 case, lightly touch the case against a running tumbler. It will settle the powder column down. Works well for powder/cartridge combos that are almost always compressed loads (Varget and .223!) An old time black powder style drop tube works well too.