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Old November 13, 2010, 12:21 PM   #1
147 Grain
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Excellent Self Defense Loads From Major Manufactures

F****** 380 ACP ******

Winchester Supreme Elite: Civilian version of bonded Ranger T
95-gr. Bonded PDX1 (S380PDB)

Buffalo Bore:
100-gr. Hardcast Flatnose Standard Pressure (27E)
100-gr. +P Hardcast Flatnose (27A) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.
95-gr. +P Jacketed HP (27D)


****** 9X18 Makarov ******

Buffalo Bore: Consider FMJ is you have feeding problems.
115-gr. Hard Cast Flat Nose (Item #34B)


****** 38 Special Snubnose ******

Buffalo Bore Short Barrel:
158-gr. Standard Pressure Lead Semi-Wadcutter HP (20C)
150-gr. Standard Pressure Hardcast Wadcutter (20D) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
110-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper HP (DPX38110-20)

Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot:
135-gr. +P Gold Dot HP (23921)


****** 38 Special ******

Buffalo Bore: Also see other loads with 158-gr. +P LSWCHP (FBI / Chicago Load)
158-gr. +P LSWCHP (20A)
150-gr. Standard Pressure Hardcast Wadcutter (20D) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.

Winchester Supreme Elite: Civilian version of bonded Ranger T
130-gr. +P Bonded PDX1 (S38PDB)

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
110-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper HP (DPX38110-20)

Speer Gold Dot: Also see other loads with the Gold Dot bullet
125-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot HP (23720)


****** 9mm Luger ******

Federal Tactical: LE Only
135-gr. +P Bonded HP (LE9T5)
124-gr. Bonded HP (LE9T1)

Federal HST: LE Only
147-gr. +P HST HP (P9HST4)
147-gr. HST HP (P9HST2)

Winchester Ranger T: LE Only
147-gr. HP (RA9T)
124-gr. +P Bonded HP (RA9BAB)
147-gr. Bonded HP (RA9B)
124-gr. Bonded HP (RA99124TP)
127-gr. +P+ HP (RA9TA)

Remington Golden Saber: Similar to Ranger T
147-gr. HP (GS9MMC)
124-gr. +P Bonded HP (GSB9MMD)
147-gr. +P Bonded HP (GSB9MMC)

Winchester Supreme Elite: Civilian Version of Bonded Ranger T
124-gr. +P Bonded PDX1 HP (S9MMPDB)
147-gr. Bonded PDX1 HP (S9MMPDB1)

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
115-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper HP (DPX09115-20)

Black Hills:
115-gr. +P Barnes Tac-XP

Barnes:
115-gr. +P XPB Copper Jacketed HP

Speer Gold Dot: See also Double Tap & Black Hills
124-gr. +P Bonded HP (23617)
147-gr. Bonded HP (23619)
124-gr. Bonded HP (23618)

Buffalo Bore:
124-gr. +P+ Bonded Gold Dot HP (24B)
147-gr. +P+ Bonded Gold Dot HP (24C)
124-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot HP (24E)
124-gr. +P+ Penetrator FMJ (24F) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.

Double Tap:
115-gr. +P Barnes Tac-XP Copper Jacketed HP
147-gr. +P Flat Nose FMJ For protection in the mountains.


****** 357 Sig ******

Double Tap:
147-gr. +P Bonded (1. Gold Dot if Available / 2. Sierra Loading)
125-gr. +P Bonded (1. Gold Dot if Available / 2. Sierra Loading)

Federal LE Tactical: LE Only
125-gr. LE Tactical Bonded HP (LE357ST4)

Buffalo Bore:
125-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot (25A)

Winchester: LE Only
125-gr. Bonded Ranger T (RA357SB)

Remington:
125-gr. +P Bonded Golden Saber HP (GSB357SB)

Federal HST:
125-gr. HST HP (P357SHST1)

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
125-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper Jacketed HP (DPX357SIG125-20)

Speer Gold Dot:
125-gr. Bonded Gold Dot HP (23918)


****** 357 Mag ******

Buffalo Bore:
125-gr. Jacketed Montana Gold HP (19D) Use Gold Dot if it’s available
158-gr. Jacketed Montana Gold HP (19C) Use Gold Dot if it’s available
180-gr. Hardcast Lead Flat Nose (19A) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.

Double Tap:
125-gr. Bonded Gold Dot HP (If Available)
125-gr. Semi-Jacketed Nosler HP
158-gr. Bonded Gold Dot HP
158-gr. Jacketed Nosler HP
200-gr. WFNGC (Wide Flat Nose Gas Checked) Hard Cast For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.

Speer Gold Dot:
125-gr. Bonded Gold Dot HP (23920)
158-gr. Bonded Gold Dot HP (23960)

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
125-gr. DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper HP (DPX357125-20)
125-gr. Jacketed HP (SD357125-20)

Winchester Supreme:
180-gr. Nosler Partition Gold (S357P) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.


****** 40 S&W ******

Federal LE: LE Only
165-gr. +P Bonded HP (LE40T3)
180-gr. Bonded HP (LE40T1)

Federal HST: LE Only
180-gr. HST HP (P40HST1)

Winchester Ranger T: LE Only
180-gr. HP (RA40T)
165-gr. Bonded HP (RA40BA)
165-gr. HP (RA40TA)
180-gr. Bonded HP (RA40B)

Remington Golden Saber: Similar to Ranger T
180-gr. HP (GS40SWB)
165-gr. Bonded HP (GSB40SWA)
180-gr. Bonded HP (GSB40SWB)

Winchester Supreme Elite: Civilian Version of Bonded Ranger T
165-gr. Bonded PDX1 HP (S40SWPDB)
180-gr. Bonded PDX1 HP (S40SWPDB1)

Black Hills:
155-gr. Barnes Tac-XP

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
140-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper Jacketed HP (DPX40140-20)

Barnes:
155-gr. XPB Copper Jacketed HP
140-gr. XPB Copper Jacketed HP

Speer Gold Dot: See also Double Tap, & Black Hills
165-gr. Bonded Gold Dot (23970)
155-gr. Bonded Gold Dot (23961)
180-gr. Bonded Gold Dot (23962)

Buffalo Bore:
180-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot (23B)
155-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot (23A)
180-gr. +P Flat Nose FMJ (23C) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.


****** 10mm (FBI) Auto ******

Double Tap:
155-gr. +P Barnes Tac-XP All Copper Jacketed HP
180-gr. +P Golden Saber HP
180-gr. +P Nosler Jacketed HP
200-gr. +P WFNGC (Wide Flat Nose Gas Checked) Hardcast
230-gr. +P WFNGC (Wide Flat Nose Gas Checked) Hardcast For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains

Buffalo Bore:
180-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot HP (21B)
200-gr. +P Flat Nose FMJ (21A) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
155-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper Jacketed HP (DPX10155-20)


****** 45 ACP ******

Federal LE Tactical: LE Only
230-gr. +P Bonded HP (LE45T1)

Federal HST: LE Only
230-gr. +P HST HP (P45HST1)
230-gr. HST HP (P45HST2)

Winchester Ranger T: LE Only
230-gr. +P HP (RA45TP)
230-gr. HP (RA45T)
230-gr. Bonded HP (RA45B)

Remington Golden Saber: Similar to Ranger T
230-gr. HP (GS45APB)
230-gr. Bonded HP (GSB45APB)

Winchester Supreme Elite: Civilian Version of Bonded Ranger T
230-gr. Bonded PDX1 HP (S45PDB)

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
185-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper Jacketed HP (DPX45185-20)
160-gr. +P DPX [Barnes XPB] Copper Jacketed HP (DPX45160-20)

Black Hills:
185-gr. +P Barnes Tac-XP

Barnes:
185-gr. +P XPB Copper Jacketed HP
160-gr. +P XPB Copper Jacketed HP

Speer Gold Dot: See also Double Tap, & Black Hills,
200-gr. +P Only – Bonded Gold Dot HP (23969)
230-gr. Bonded Gold Dot HP (23966)

Buffalo Bore:
200-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot (45-200)
230-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot (45-230)
255-gr. +P Hardcast (45-255) For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains.

Double Tap:
160-gr. Barnes Tac-XP Copper Jacketed HP
230-gr. +P Golden Saber HP
255-gr. +P Hardcast Semi-Wadcutter For barrier penetration & protection in the mountains
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Last edited by 147 Grain; November 16, 2010 at 04:15 AM.
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Old November 13, 2010, 03:07 PM   #2
xm21
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Have you tried the Win PDX1 147gr ammo?It is easier for me to find around here than the Ranger stuff and is very accurate in my G19.
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Old November 13, 2010, 04:51 PM   #3
stormyone
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Good list.
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Old November 13, 2010, 10:18 PM   #4
xm21
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I see you added the Win PDX1 ammo to your list.How about that Critical Defense ammo with the flex tip bullets have you ever tried it?I tried some of the 9mm and it was accurate and expanded as advertised in everything I shot it into but it is a light for caliber bullet.
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Old November 14, 2010, 12:10 AM   #5
KyJim
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147 Grain --

I think you need to be careful about including Double Tap and Buffalo Bore. I think your information may be a bit dated. At one time, Buffalo Bore (and I think Double Tap) advertised and used Gold Dot bullets in their offerings. The Gold Dot is a proven bullet design. When the "Great Ammo Shortage" happened, the smaller companies had to scramble for components with the result that they began using other bullets.

Buffalo Bore, for example, began using Montana Gold bullets. I've also seen them advertise that they use Speer bonded bullets. Speer, however, makes more than one kind of bonded bullet. Currently, they don't say what kind of bullet they use.

Double Tap likewise uses other bullets than the God Dot. For example, their 230 gr. .45 acp +P ammo is loaded with "Brass Jacketed JHP made by Remington" -- http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=496. So is their 124 gr. 9mm +P. http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=495. I think they still advertise using Gold Dots in a couple of other loads, but not in 9mm or .45 acp.

These bullets may perform admirably but unless they are tested, we can't say.
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Old November 14, 2010, 12:41 AM   #6
147 Grain
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Thanks for the updates.

I have 8 - 10 boxes of Double Tap ammo in 3 calibers - all with the Gold Dot bullet .... and .... a few boxes of Buffalo Bore Gold Dot. Since it's hard to tell when Speer bullets are available to these manufactures, they have alternate sources to call upon until Gold Dots can be shipped.
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Old November 14, 2010, 12:42 AM   #7
147 Grain
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P.S. Double Tap just updated their website to reflect the use of Remington bullets.
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Old November 14, 2010, 03:11 PM   #8
147 Grain
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Heavy for caliber bullets typically perform better for self defense than lighter projectiles do because PENETRATION is mandatory and expansion is secondary.

The FBI says that 62% of police shootings, a bullet travels through an arm, hand, or leg before even touching the chest area and PD's frequently state that 50% of time the bullet has to travel at a odd angle before reaching the vitals. This is why PENETRATION is critical due to longer angles or extremities before reaching the vitals!

The average self defense HP loses 4" - 6" of penetrating power in flesh when it goes through a leather glove (both sides). Strong heavy duty bullets (that also expand) are a must if you want to survive!

The above list of suggested loads generally provide good penetration and expansion. A proper balance with penetration leading the way is the criteria I used in gathering data for performance in Gel, 4-Ply Denim, Heavy Cloth, Wallboard, Glass, and Steel.

I am in the process of expanding the recommended list to include other calibers which will be posted soon.
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Old November 14, 2010, 04:35 PM   #9
Jbb6811
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this is why you shouldnt include hornady CD.
L-Winchester pdx M-Speer gold dot R-Hornady CD

these are all shot from my 40 into jugs of water. i just bought some hydr shocks and am plannig to try some out. this time im going to use phone books shoaked in water overnight. then place an old tshirt over it and see how they all perform.
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Old November 14, 2010, 05:35 PM   #10
147 Grain
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Your picture speaks volumes as to why Winchester's PDX1 and Speer's Gold Dot are on my list and why Critical Defense (CD) is not. My earlier post on bullets needing to penetrate at (longer) odd angles or through limbs is a perfect example of why CD is not on the list.

Hornady is a great company! and I like their products, except those for personal / civilian self defense. Critical Defense is too soft with inadequate penetration and their tougher XTP's are too hard with not much expansion (sometimes more penetration than is necessary).

My list contains bullets that are a happy medium (between penetration and expansion) that Goldie Locks would say is about right.
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Last edited by 147 Grain; November 14, 2010 at 06:24 PM.
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Old November 15, 2010, 03:26 AM   #11
8shot357
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Another magic bullet thread!

Been there.
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Old November 15, 2010, 04:44 AM   #12
LanceOregon
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Quote:
The FBI says that 62% of police shootings
Again, this is all irrelevant to everyone here that is not a member of law enforcement.

For we are not policemen.

You are hopelessly biased towards big, heavy, slow bullets and achieving deep penetration.

.
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Old November 15, 2010, 07:06 AM   #13
thechamp
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After seeing some testing with the 127gr +P+ ranger T's... thats what ive been carrying.

im planning on doing my own testing to confirm those results as well.
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Old November 15, 2010, 10:17 AM   #14
147 Grain
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Here's a link to compare midweight bullets to heavier projectiles and see how up to 4 loads perform in Gel, 4-Layer Denim, Heavy Cloth, and Wallboard.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...law_bullit.swf
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Old November 15, 2010, 10:19 AM   #15
147 Grain
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Civilians are also apt to defend themselves in nonperfect situations where the bullet must travel a longer distance through a limb or penetrate at odd angles. This is generally why heavy for caliber projectiles outperform lighter bullets, with the exception being BONDED midweight bullets.
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Old November 15, 2010, 11:28 AM   #16
Justice4Lady
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Actually, there are exceptions to every rule. A lot of generalizations and assumptions out there.
Once that bullet leaves the muzzle-no matter what bore, weight, method of construction, or velocity- it does whatever there's no real telling how it will function until it does..or doesnt.

I've seen multiple cases of 9mm and .40 in various loads/velocties, etc. do next to nothing on humans, yet in the same night seen people arrive DOA with "one-shot" hits from .25 auto. from a "junk" Raven.
It;s a coin-toss, every time we pull a hand-gun's trigger.

But, there are some makes/loads that do seem to work consistently/reliably more so than others..Gold Dots in just about any caliber I've seen used being high on the list.
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Old November 15, 2010, 02:00 PM   #17
LanceOregon
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Quote:
Civilians are also apt to defend themselves in nonperfect situations where the bullet must travel a longer distance through a limb or penetrate at odd angles
Not at all true. That is clearly a bogus statement that you have made up and cannot support with any actual data.

You are not a police officer. You shoot a person that is not advancing towards you, you will be arrested. You certainly would be arrested for shooting someone quartering away from you. You shoot a person hiding behind a barricade, you will be arrested. You shoot a person that is inside a car, you will be arrested.

Civilians do NOT face the same type of confrontations that police officers do in the performance of their duties. Nor do civilians have any authority whatsoever to pursue criminals.

Your rights to shoot in self defense as a civilian are quite limited compared to members of law enforcement.

.
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Old November 15, 2010, 02:11 PM   #18
LanceOregon
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jbb6811:

Here is a bullet from a Federal HST Tactical 124 gr +P load that did not make this "approved" list that was shot into a row of plastic water jugs:

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Old November 15, 2010, 02:19 PM   #19
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I'm right in line with these....
Quote:
Winchester Ranger T: LE Only
180-gr. (RA40T)
165-gr. Bonded (RA40BA)
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Old November 15, 2010, 02:35 PM   #20
147 Grain
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No need for "approval" as my list isn't approved by anyone and not meant to be all inclusive.

Federal HST is a great bullet design! and I agree that their expansion pics look enticing. In testing through Gel, 4-Ply Denim, Heavy Cloth, Wallboard, and Glass, 147-gr. loads performed better overall in 9mm and this is why I recommend consideration for the (P9HST4) +P load first and the P9HST2 (standard pressure) load second. 124-gr. +P (P9HST3) expands well, but is lacking a bit on the penetration side. If Federal applied a bonding technique to the 124-gr. +P then it likely would be recommended.

This same principle surrounding HST's applies to the 45 ACP, with the +P loading in 230-gr. (P45HST2 +P) having better wound characteristic than the standard pressure variety (P45HST1). In short, HST +P loadings tend to penetrate and expand a little better than their regular pressure loadings, but either load is still OK.
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Last edited by 147 Grain; November 15, 2010 at 02:49 PM.
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Old November 15, 2010, 03:02 PM   #21
147 Grain
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Civilians defending their lives indeed cannot be proactive like police officers.

Common sense tells you that when defending your family inside your home, there may be nonperfect situations (i.e. the attacker is not always directly facing you for a perfect shot through the heart like on a target at the range). Situations might also include a less than ideal shot, "where the bullet must travel a longer distance through a limb or penetrate at odd angles" before reaching the vitals to hopefully stop the threat.

This principle of "nonperfect situations where the bullet must travel a longer distance through a limb or penetrate at odd angles" applies to civilians and LE and should not be confused with civilians being proactive like LE are charged with. Civilians defending their lives indeed cannot be proactive like police officers.
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Old November 15, 2010, 03:30 PM   #22
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Well, what about those of us that don't carry the conventional calibers such as .9mm, .40, or .45.

My daily carry is .357 Sig and I also carry my 10mm on occasion...
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Old November 15, 2010, 04:24 PM   #23
147 Grain
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****** 357 Sig ******

Double Tap:
147-gr. +P Bonded (1. Gold Dot if Available / 2. Sierra Loading)
125-gr. +P Bonded (1. Gold Dot if Available / 2. Sierra Loading)

Federal LE Tactical:
125-gr. LE Tactical Bonded HP (LE357ST4)

Buffalo Bore:
125-gr. +P Bonded Gold Dot (25A)

Winchester:
125-gr. Bonded Ranger T (RA357SB)

Remington:
125-gr. +P Bonded Golden Saber HP (GSB357SB)

Federal:
125-gr. HST HP (P357SHST1)

Corbon – Dakota Ammo:
125-gr. +P DPX Copper Jacketed HP (DPX357SIG125-20)

Speer Gold Dot:
125-gr. Bonded Gold Dot HP (23918)



****** 10mm (FBI) Auto ******

Double Tap:
155-gr. +P Barnes Tac-XP All Copper HP
180-gr. +P Golden Saber HP
180-gr. +P Nosler Jacketed HP

Buffalo Bore:
180-gr. +P Jacketed HP (21B)
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Last edited by 147 Grain; November 15, 2010 at 06:03 PM.
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Old November 15, 2010, 04:31 PM   #24
LanceOregon
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You are indeed confusing the two 147 gr., and muddling the issue up. For the simple fact is that civilians engaging in self defense do not encounter the same type of shooting scenarios that law enforcement does. We are not patrolling around town in our cars and stopping people, and thus have no need to shoot through car windshields.

Anyone who is assaulting or threatening you is generally going to be facing you.

You want a bullet that penetrates real deep? Well what if it goes through your attacker? Are you prepared to deal with the consequences of the bullet then striking an innocent bystander? If an officer does that in the line of duty, it is the police department that could potentially be sued. However, if you do that as a civilian, you can definitely count on being hit with a huge lawsuit. Do you have an extra million in cash lying around?

It is an absolute myth that civilians have the same ammunition performance needs that police officers do. Just as it is a myth that deep penetrating bullets are more effective in stopping an attacker.

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Old November 15, 2010, 04:40 PM   #25
LanceOregon
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Quote:
124-gr. +P (P9HST3) expands well, but is lacking a bit on the penetration side.
That is only true if you buy into this flawed concept that real deep penetration is necessary.

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