draw and shoot vrs target shooting

[AK103K]

How can you miss the safety on a 1911. Soon as you get any sort of grip on the pistol your thumb is gonna be laying on the safety,...

I've managed thousands of presentations with a 1911, in classes, in competition and in practice, without missing the safety or failing to disengage the grip safety.

I've made probably a bazillion presentations with a 1911, and with most all of them, have always had troubles with a grip that tries to ride the thumb on top of the safety instead of along side it after its been swept off. I know its not the "way" to do it these days, but you go with what works I suppose. At least its always worked for me. It was always the grip safety that was the issue, and not the thumb safety. I also always carried basically box stock 1911's of the original Colt design, and not the modified type most seem to be now. No beavertails and hump back grip safeties. A lot of times, if you try to force that extra high grip on stock guns, you will often hinder the grip safety being disengaged.


Constant practice is everything, both dry fire and live practice, and starting slow and doing it right, ingraining the muscle memory, is more important than being fast. You'll know you're getting there when you "think" guns, and you're looking at the sights on what you're looking at.

Once you have that down, you can start to move while doing it.

Airsoft is a great way to practice too. The guns these days fit your normal holsters and work just like the real thing (Short of blast and heavier recoil. They do cycle and "recoil" though, and you do have to track the sights). You can practice in the house (until the old lady steps on one of the pellets on the hardwoods in her bare feet ) or out in the yard with very little, if any impact on things. I used to practice drawing and shooting, while moving off the "X" on a 4x4 clothes line post at about 5 feet, shooting the post just as the gun cleared the holster, and it was heavily "dimpled" from the pellets. You'd be amazed at how well you can hit even small targets with just a little practice. Airsoft makes the transition to live ammo a lot easier too, if you havent shoot that way before.

Im lucky enough to have a range where I can do pretty much anything I want, without being harassed, so I get to practice a little more realistically than a lot of other places I've shot. Most places these days are so worried about lawsuits, you're lucky you're allowed live ammo. If you cant shoot like this, Airsoft is a very big help getting things worked out.

Targets are another thing many dont seem to consider. Bullseye targets are fine, for "target" shooting, but do nothing for programing your brain to shoot where you "need" to shoot. There are a number of "photo" type targets available today, that place the target in positions that require thought as to where you place the shot. They arent all the typical "face on" easy COM shots you see presented in most cases. COM isnt always COM when the target isnt square to you. You need to put the bullets direction of travel into the right place, from all directions as you move around the target (or as its presented to you), to get where it belongs.

[CMichael]

"slow is smooth, smooth is fast"

[KenpoTex]

Originally Posted by mavracer

Look I realize there's more than one way to skin a cat. I understand your all about having the gun up high to transition to sights. You do it however you want.But having the gun as high as you are showing does two things it adds time before muzzle will cover BG...

I don't think you'll find an appreciable difference in time but to each their own...

Originally Posted by mavracer

...and in the video you are shooting down through the abdomen IMHO shooting up through the chest from a slightly lower retention position will have better results.and I find it gives me better control and ability to shield my weapon.
and like Fiddletown said

Something to think about:

If you are in a situation where you are forced to shoot from a retention position, the gun is only a very small part of the problem. We have to remember that the bad guy is not just going to be standing there, he is probably trying to either take our gun...or take our head off. In this situation, obtaining and maintaining dominant position is paramount. In fact, attempting to use the gun before obtaining positional-dominance makes it very possible that you will lose the gun.

The downward muzzle-orientation that results from the pectoral-index and locked wrist allow us a fairly large "workspace" in which we can utilize our support-hand to shield/cover against an attack, manipulate our opponent's position to allow us an opportunity to shoot unimpeded, or to check/foul his attempts to reach our gun. You are correct when you say that a lower position will orient the muzzle such that rounds will impact higher in the torso. However, it also shrinks the available workspace considerably; increasing the chance that one will shoot himself if attempting to use the support hand to manage the attack.

[Brit]

Well the missed safety, I did miss mine, once! Had a buddy video camera 1 yard behind the RO at an USPSA/IPSC match, he showed me I was disengaging the safety, 4" out of the holster! Not good, but I had been doing it for a while, obviously.

As I am old! I am old school re grip, right thumb down, left thumb trapping the right.

We were more interested in protecting from a grab close in (when I started IPSC, and teaching) than laying thumbs nearly on the slide, and slowing said slide down.

I grip a revolver the same way. It is my way, all the top shooters use the open hand grip, thats OK, just not for me.

My IPSC 1911 was made in 1913! And had the wee nubbin safety catch, was never a problem, till I missed it! Then Glock 17, I had to convince the Finger Lakes (NYS) CRO it was double action only, in order to use it, but 18 rounds instead of 9 was a kind of an advantage, I thought.

[smince]

when your hands meet you should at that point be able to fire in case the BG is too close.

Actually, I like to be able to fire as soon as I clear the holster, because I may not have the full use of both hands (ie, pushing wife/child away, fighting off attacker, etc). Of course, that never happens in real life because we always have our 'situational awareness" switched on...

How can you miss the safety on a 1911. Soon as you get any sort of grip on the pistol your thumb is gonna be laying on the safety, whether you are shootin one handed or two.

It has been reported that highly skilled and practiced 1911 carriers either miss the thumb safety, or fail to depress the grip safety properly in FOF classes.

[Archie]

Trust me, it's easier to learn how to 'present' a firearm than it is to learn to place shots correctly.

One of the keys to 'draw and fire' quickly and accurately is having a decent holster. One should be able to get a proper grip on the firearm PRIOR to removing the firearm from the holster. I find the first step is practice nothing more than getting your hand on the grip properly while in the holster. Don't worry about removing the firearm at the beginning. Proper grip does not require one's finger on the trigger; but it must depress the grip safety and have one's fingers around the grip in a full control configuration. (Obviously, one should take precautions against premature discharges. The arm need not - probably should not - be loaded for this practice.

If you cannot get your hand properly on the grip due to holster limitations, it's not a suitable holster for this sort of work. Suitable holsters are available from many sources, so I won't suggest any. Just make sure your hand gets on the grip properly at the first.

(The rest of) Fiddletown's explanation is just fine. I will admit I have no idea what my left - support - hand is doing while my right -strong - hand is getting on the pistol, but I've never had a problem in over forty years of doing this. Still, it won't hurt to pay attention at this stage of things.

As said, go slow at first and get all the individual parts of the process correct. Speed comes with proper practice. And above all, smooth is fast.

[Dave R]

I agree that the "draw from concealment to first shot" is one of the most important skills a concealed carrier can have.

My favorite way to practice this in in the garage with Speer's plastic training bullets. Powered by primer only. They shoot to point of aim, near as I can tell. I was amazed at how much I improved with some regular practice.

[CMichael]

I got my first 1911 when do you flick off the safety when drawing ?

[Dwight55]

CMichael, . . . if you stood at my left and watched the handgun barrel go from basically pointing straight down, . . . to a horizontal, target engaging attitude: you would call that going from 6:00 to 9:00, so to speak.

My thumb rakes down the safety at about 7:30, which makes sure that my body parts are all clear and won't be swept across during the rest of the presentation.

This is all done with the handgun still within about 12 inches of the holster, almost directly above it.

My thumb then goes directly below the safety in case it needs to be re-engaged. It also is my shooting position, thumb under the safety, . . . has worked for, ................ mm............45+years

May God bless,
Dwight

[MikeNice81]

Actually, I like to be able to fire as soon as I clear the holster, because I may not have the full use of both hands (ie, pushing wife/child away, fighting off attacker, etc).

This is what I've been trying to practice. I have been told by a couple of retired cops to present the muzzle as soon as it clears leather.

It was also the prefered method of Captains Fairbairn and Sykes. Both of whom survived their share of gun fights. They also taught a lot of people how to survive close quarters gun fights. Their methods had a good showing in the Shanghai police department.

Their teachings come from the school of thought, if it takes you more than a third of a second to get off the first shot, "you will not be the one to tell the newspapers about it."

Their recomendation was drawing to a "three-quarter hip" position and firing a two or three shot burst. If you could keep groups under 6" at 3 yards it was time to move the target back a yard. (I believe they were using 2" .45LC revolvers for plain clothes work.) They practiced a lot at 4 yards because of their cramped urban enviroment. I would recomend going out to 7 yards based on current FBI testing and training.

I guess my point is, get the shot off as fast as possible while staying accurate. If that means pulling to the pectoral muscle and then firing, fine, However, dropping the elbow, and presenting the muzzle, directly after clearing leather is a fast and well proven method as well.

It is hard at first but mainly because we all practiced a different way for so long. I believe it is a valid way to practice though because, as the Captains said, it is literally a matter of the quick and the dead.

[CMichael]

Thanks Dwight.

[Erik]

Its not "vs" issue, but one of complimenting skill sets.

I've heard the "basic" skill sets described as: producing (unslinging or drawing), shooting and manipulating.

And I can't think of a reason to dispute that or to avoid learning those skill sets.

[Brit]

The Firing Line is a polite area, that ideas are presented, and debated, and this IMHO is a good thing.

As Florida is a gun friendly State, you can carry concealed, for self protection just about anywhere, with few exceptions.

You may protect yourself, and others, without to many worries, as the Castle Doctrine is alive and well.

Certain realities need to be established very early in your growth as a gun carrying person. In no special order, your gun must be as trouble free as possible (each time you press the trigger, it should go bang!) the rate of rounds re weight should be realistic, this criteria is a guesstimate on how many rounds could you use, without a re-load? that history has taught us has happened.

Can we agree if your gear is to heavy, you might not want to carry it every day, or move down in calibre to carry, a less than adequate stopper, I know people who do, because it is easier.

My choice, Glock 19 weight empty 21 oz, Colt 45, a fine pistol, but weighs 39 oz, that is a huge difference, magazine capacity difference, 15 in the Glock, 7 or 8 in the Colt.

Reading the books of such experts as Dr. Vincent Di Maio, it becomes quickly apparent that the over riding factor in shooting bad people, is where you shoot them, and also in such underpowered weapons such as hand guns, how many times.

I hope this little insight into my thought pattern has started a thought process, one that is a little more simple than some.