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Old November 7, 2010, 09:39 PM   #1
SQUAREKNOT
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draw and shoot vrs target shooting

I'm 60 years old and just to day after shooting a bunch of 2"-3" groups at 35 feet with both hands I tried to draw and shoot.
If you haven't tried it DO IT!! I COULDN'T HAVE HIT THE INSIDE OF A BARN WITH THE DOORS CLOSED.
My holster would not allow me to get a good grip and several times the gun wouldn't shoot as my grip was so poor I didn't activate the 1911's grip safety.
At least I have all winter to practice.
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Old November 7, 2010, 10:20 PM   #2
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It takes a lot of practice to obtain the proper presentation where by the time you punch out the pistol, you'll have the sights properly aligned on target.

Otherwise, in defensive situations (i.e. really close up), you can shoot from a 'half-draw' (whereby you draw the pistol, rotate your elbow downwards, and bring the muzzle to bear--without bringing the pistol to your centerline or 'punching' the pistol out) and still make good Center-mass shots. I occasionally practice like this.
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Old November 7, 2010, 10:30 PM   #3
Frank Ettin
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Drawing a gun is an art. I believe that one should get proper training in presenting the gun from the holster and practice it regularly. I try to do live fire presentation drills at least once a month (together with weekly live fire practice and dry practice several times a week).

I'm also an NRA certified instructor for, among other things, Personal Protection Outside the Home; and we teach drawing the gun as part of that class. The more-or-less standard presentation from a strong side belt holster, as taught most places these days, goes roughly like this:



[1] You want to achieve a full firing grip before withdrawing the pistol from the holster. You should not have to shift your grip. Throughout the draw stroke, until you are actually going to fire the gun, the trigger finger stays off the trigger, outside the trigger guard and indexed along the frame. 



[2] While the strong hand is moving to grip the pistol, the weak hand is placed flat on the abdomen near the same level as the grip of the pistol. This helps assure that the weak hand isn't swept by the muzzle and also puts the weak hand in position to take grip the pistol over the strong hand.



[3] The pistol is withdrawn straight upwards from the holster, and the muzzle is rotated toward the target after it clears the holster. If using 1911, Browning High Power, or some other gun with a safety engaged, the safety may be disengaged here, but the trigger finger remains off the trigger, outside the trigger guard and indexed along the frame.



[4] When the muzzle is rotated toward the target the strong hand is at about the level of the strong side pectoral muscle and the strong hand is held at or touching the side with the muzzle pointed to the threat. If the threat is very close, within a few yards, the gun may be fired from this position. This is called the retention position. 



[5] At the retention position, the weak hand comes up to assume its part of the grip. The two hands then together extend the gun either fully up to shooting position or partially at a downward angle to the low ready position, depending on the circumstances.



[6] The gun is holstered by following those steps in reverse. I have been taught to follow these steps whenever removing my gun from, or placing my gun in, the holster.



[7] I've also been taught to begin moving my strong hand to the gun from about my belt buckle. The thing is that if I'm carrying my gun concealed I will need to displace my covering garment to gain access to the gun. If I sweep my strong from approximately mid line I automatically sweep aside my covering garment.

Two key words here: smooth and control.

The goal is to do this smoothly. If one concentrates on being smooth and practice over and over again, he will get fast. Speed comes from smoothness and no wasted motion. And one must be in control at all times. At lot is going on, and a misstep on the presentation can be devastating. But by being smooth you retain control, and by being smooth you become fast. And by being smooth and in control you will be accurate.



Fast is fine, but accuracy is final.
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Old November 7, 2010, 10:37 PM   #4
SQUAREKNOT
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Drawing a gun is an art.

I just printed two copies of your reply for the wall-thanks,
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Old November 7, 2010, 11:24 PM   #5
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Start slow and start with an empty weapon.
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Old November 8, 2010, 01:23 AM   #6
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SQUAREKNOT
I just printed two copies of your reply for the wall...
I hope it helps. Best of luck to you. It's well worth working on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzcook
Start slow and start with an empty weapon.
Excellent advice.
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Old November 8, 2010, 08:22 AM   #7
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Another thing you may want to look into later on, a .22 conversion kit for your 1911.

It allows you to draw and shoot and not cost you a half a buck every time you pull the trigger, . . . while at the same time using the grip, the trigger, and the safety of your regular carry weapon.

I thought about getting an air soft or a BB gun type replica, but bought the Ciener conversion kit and am very happy with it.

May God bless,
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Old November 8, 2010, 11:23 AM   #8
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"Draw and shoot vs. Target Shooting"

Why do they have to be separate? I've been thinking about this all night.

Yesterday I shot a Steel Challenge. Now I'm not a fast shooter. (Though I was a bit faster before I retired from LE). I wasn't the fastest guy out there by a long shoot, but I was pretty accurate (not to brag but to show a point). There was this FBI agent at the match. He was fast (or a lot faster then me) but he shot a heck of a lot of rounds for every hit he made. Don't know what gun he was shooting, but the sucker must have held 15 or so rounds. He had more misses then hits but his time was a tiny bit faster them mine.

This got me wondering. I like to see cops shoot matches. Good training. But in real life he has to account for all those misses. Where are they going, who they gonna hit?

I shot my Cold series 70 Gold Cup. Only holds 7 rounds so I had to take my time a bit and aim. Now I have a Smith Sigma and could have got off a lot more rounds without reloading, but I couldn't shoot it as well.

I'd rather have hits, even if its slower.

I think the best way to do it, is to start out real slow, drawing, hitting a series of targets, and speed up as you go. Get faster, then, when you miss, back up slow down again, then speed up until you miss. Keep doing that and you will get faster without all the misses.

Two things come to mind.

You cant miss enough to win a gun fight

and

Shoot Slow, as fast as you can
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Old November 8, 2010, 12:05 PM   #9
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slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Work on proper technique as Fiddletown said and speed will come.
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Old November 8, 2010, 12:47 PM   #10
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Excellant Thread

Very well put fiddletown. That was very well written. It's good to see practical stuff that works. Thanks for sharing.

" If you can't shoot faster than the other guy; shoot straighter". - Chic Gaylord
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Old November 8, 2010, 02:04 PM   #11
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Thank you, Eagle.
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Old November 8, 2010, 02:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown
[2] While the strong hand is moving to grip the pistol, the weak hand is placed flat on the abdomen near the same level as the grip of the pistol. This helps assure that the weak hand isn't swept by the muzzle and also puts the weak hand in position to take grip the pistol over the strong hand.


I personally prefer a slightly different approach at this stage of the drawstroke:

Instead of placing the weak hand "on the abdomen at the same level as the grip of the pistol," I prefer to start with the hand much higher by placing it on the sternum (I actually index my thumb at the notch on the top of my sternum).
The most important reason for this is that mating the hands as high as possible allows you to get the pistol into your line of sight as early in the presentation as possible. This allows you more time to pick up your sights as you're pressing the gun out to extension.

A common tendency is that if the hands are mated low, the gun tends to "dip" on the way out and then swing up to cut the line of sight. This means that the gun does not get into your line of sight until it is almost at full extension.

Another reason is that it is no more difficult to start with the weak hand high on the sternum than it is to start it low. By starting low and then moving it up, one is adding unnecessary movement and creating more opportunity to "dip" the gun during the extension phase of the presentation.

Here's a link to a post by an instructor named Paul Gomez who does a great job of explaining the drawstroke (pictures included with the description)
http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=8796
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Old November 8, 2010, 02:51 PM   #13
mavracer
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Quote:
The most important reason for this is that mating the hands as high as possible allows you to get the pistol into your line of sight as early in the presentation as possible. This allows you more time to pick up your sights as you're pressing the gun out to extension.
except this would bypass the retention position. when your hands meet you should at that point be able to fire in case the BG is too close.
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Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
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The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
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Old November 8, 2010, 03:15 PM   #14
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There are many minor variations on the basic draw stroke, and various instructors will often add their own wrinkle to make it "their" technique. And there will be personal variations based on an individual's physic.

I teach the way I was taught first at Gunsite, and later by Louis Awerbuck. My weak hand on my abdomen is only about three inches lower than illustrated by Paul Gomez; and my gun in the retention position is also slightly lower, in part because of the way I'm built and in part because of the range of motion limits of my 60+ year old shoulder and elbow. I also shoot with my head more erect, and most often from a Chapman stance.

But I can't imagine that these sorts of minor variations really make a material difference in speed. The fundamental goal is to be smooth and in control. If one is smooth and in control, consistent practice will make him fast and accurate.
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Old November 8, 2010, 03:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavracer
except this would bypass the retention position. when your hands meet you should at that point be able to fire in case the BG is too close.
This in no way eliminates or "bypasses" your retention shooting capability. The "number 2" position (thumb of shooting hand indexed on pectoral muscle) is still your "extreme close quarters (ECQ)" shooting position.
At the "number 3" position (where the hands first mate), you can fire at a threat that is beyond "ECQ" range.
Furthermore, you can continue firing as you press out to full extension, or as you compress from full extension back towards a retention position if the threat advances (or you're advancing toward a threat).

The first 3rd of this video shows some of this stuff in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7cb...75&index=8
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Old November 8, 2010, 04:07 PM   #16
xanth
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Wow excellent thread and info

Most of the indoor ranges I've been to won't let you draw and shoot though.
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Old November 8, 2010, 04:38 PM   #17
mavracer
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Quote:
The first 3rd of this video shows some of this stuff in action.
Look I realize there's more than one way to skin a cat. I understand your all about having the gun up high to transition to sights. You do it however you want.But having the gun as high as you are showing does two things it adds time before muzzle will cover BG and in the video you are shooting down through the abdomen IMHO shooting up through the chest from a slightly lower retention position will have better results.and I find it gives me better control and ability to shield my weapon.
and like Fiddletown said
Quote:
I can't imagine that these sorts of minor variations really make a material difference in speed. The fundamental goal is to be smooth and in control. If one is smooth and in control, consistent practice will make him fast and accurate.
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Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
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Old November 8, 2010, 04:50 PM   #18
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An actual class would be much better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dA_tV7g7Bc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qJaY...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1tvUDUwPl8

You should dry fire at home with an unloaded gun. It's hard to draw and shoot quickly and accuratly.

I dry fire at home. When I am at the range, I start from the ready poisition, then extend and fire. It's tough to do it accurately.
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Old November 8, 2010, 04:56 PM   #19
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I like this too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jtVV...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp-pS...eature=related

Below is really good about a home invasion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsxbn...eature=related
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Old November 8, 2010, 05:27 PM   #20
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I know some of you already know this, but for those who maybe haven't thought much about it......
I learned a whole lot on this subject by investing less than $60 in a good cO2-powered BB gun (w/.177BB's and cO2cartridges). The gun is the same dimensions as a full-sized auto. (In fact mine is exactly based on a S&W M&P). These are easy to order online. I set up a regular-sized target at home just like at the range but backed with multi-layers of shipping-box cardboard on thick plywood secured by wide clear packaging tape. (The BB's can be re-used too... A majority of them eventually fall to the bottom where they're captured by the tape barrier). Anyhow, I can draw and shoot from any position, spin around and shoot from waist-high... from a crouch... or whatever. It's been a revelation for me and has improved my natural point and shoot abilities immensely... No range fees, no "rules", no prying eyes. I highly recommend it. Of course weight and recoil factors are vastly different but still, the muscle memory & hand-eye coordination factors DO transfer to my regular shooting. So... I've learned that it's much easier to practice these techniques in the privacy of my own garage (or basement or attic or backyard or spare-room) than I thought beforehand!
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Old November 8, 2010, 05:35 PM   #21
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The way to draw, well done. Also good idea to put it on the wall (Bedroom?)

A few reality's, missing the safety catch on a 1911, not gripping the pistol right, causing the grip safety not to be depressed, can it happen? Answer? Yes.

Solution? quite simple really, don't shoot those pistols with those built in dangers. I dropped 20 places in an IPSC match, missed safety catch!

An other reality, the lighter the pistol, the quicker the draw. Physics.

Shooting bad people is the same as the motto from Real Estate, location, location, LOCATION!! Not the size of the bullet.

One other mummy's little helper, not talked about a lot. The sights.

Just had a set delivered into my mail box, Brightest TruGlow, which are also tritigen night sights. Worth their weight in gold in poor, or most total darkness.

Which ever School of thought you belong too, sights? Don't need them, or use them. Shove the pistol at the target, use a flash sight picture to confirm the sight picture, the Incredable sight picture shows up like 3 green lights shone in your eyes. When looking at, or through the sights, as you would do, say like focusing on the target.
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Old November 8, 2010, 06:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
missing the safety catch on a 1911
How can you miss the safety on a 1911. Soon as you get any sort of grip on the pistol your thumb is gonna be laying on the safety, whether you are shootin one handed or two.
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Old November 8, 2010, 07:11 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit
...A few reality's, missing the safety catch on a 1911, not gripping the pistol right, causing the grip safety not to be depressed, can it happen? Answer? Yes....
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
How can you miss the safety on a 1911. Soon as you get any sort of grip on the pistol your thumb is gonna be laying on the safety,...
I agree with kraigwy. It's a technique/training/practice issue. Standard grip taught these days for a 1911 is thumb riding the safety, and fundamental to the draw stroke is consistently achieving a full firing grip before withdrawing the pistol from the holster.

I've managed thousands of presentations with a 1911, in classes, in competition and in practice, without missing the safety or failing to disengage the grip safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xanth
Wow excellent thread and info

Most of the indoor ranges I've been to won't let you draw and shoot though.
That is a problem. Dry practice is good. Taking some classes where you will practice presentations during live fire is very, very good. Getting involved in IDPA or IPSC competition is very good. These are all useful ways to learn and practice the draw stroke.
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Old November 8, 2010, 07:41 PM   #24
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I also place the off hand on the sternum, partly because I seem more likely to sweep my offhand with the muzzle as I rotate the pistol when I grab lower and partly to remind myself to pull my cover garment high up when drawing from concealment. Having inadvertently slingshotted my pistol a few times by snagging the cover garment during the draw, I've decided that (for me anyway) exagerrating some movements is better than the alternative.

However, I agree that it is a pretty minor variation.

I second the recommendation for dryfire practice. It is amazing how regular dryfire practice can improve your live fire skills. It is also a major part of developing good muscle memory. When there is no timer or shot to be fired, I tend to spend more effort on making the movements perfect. And over time all of those repetitions of perfect movements make for speedy accuracy (on the flip side, many repetitions of less than perfect movements just create bad habits that take awhile to fix).
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Old November 8, 2010, 07:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
It takes a lot of practice to obtain the proper presentation where by the time you punch out the pistol, you'll have the sights properly aligned on target.
I've seen, in a couple of courses, new students learn to grip the pistol, draw straight up, bend the wrist, drop the elbow and then draw, shoot, and hit the steel targets throughout the remainder of the course---with some coaching along the way.

Not saying it doesn't take practice to be proficient, but the proper basics were enough to get newbies started. After a 300 rd. course, they were doing pretty well. Drawing was from concealed. On the other hand, I've seen "experienced" shooters apply the same improper techniques they've been years perpetuating.
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