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Old November 6, 2010, 01:09 AM   #1
charleym3
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45 colt in IDPA

Does anyone shoot a 45colt revolver in IDPA? It just seems like a great idea. 200 grn bullets moving at 650 fps makes 130K PF. Heavy gun, light recoil. holes big enough to score as I shoot. Can have the cylinder modified to shoot moon clipped 45acp so I can shoot ESR adn SSR with the same gun.
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Old November 6, 2010, 07:47 AM   #2
MrBorland
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Good idea in theory, but SSR has a weight limit of 42oz, and .45 revolvers are often too heavy.

There's also a speedloader issue. CompIIIs aren't available, so you'd have to use HKS speedloaders, or, if you can find them, SL Variants.

Quote:
Can have the cylinder modified to shoot moon clipped 45acp so I can shoot ESR adn SSR with the same gun.
Might be tricky with the current IDPA addendum:

From Appendix 1.6:
"Ammunition used must match the caliber listed on the gun. The only exceptions would be: .38 special in .357 magnum, .44 special in .44 magnum."

You could modify it so it can be used with .45Colt with or without moonclips, then shoot in SSR/ESR (assuming the weight and speedloader issues aren't deal breakers).

Last edited by MrBorland; November 6, 2010 at 07:52 AM.
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Old November 6, 2010, 10:36 AM   #3
Don P
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Excuse my ignorance here but isn't the colt in question a six shooter western style gun? Single action?
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Old November 6, 2010, 10:44 AM   #4
Jim Watson
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Probably not.
I suspect he has a S&W 625 double action in .45 Colt.
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Old November 6, 2010, 11:07 AM   #5
Don P
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OK I was under the impression that the 625's were in 45acp. I was until now unaware that they also were made in 45 long colt which just looking at the S&W site the only models in Long Colt are the model 25's and both being priced at over $1,000 some one would be foolish to do that to a modern day pricey revolver. Just my 2 schillings worth.
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Old November 6, 2010, 11:58 AM   #6
chris in va
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I haven't been shooting IDPA very long, but suspect the setup would just slow you down quite a bit. Some stages require you to shoot over six targets with a couple mandatory mag changes after knocking down certain plates. You'd be reloading 4-5 times at least.
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Old November 6, 2010, 12:10 PM   #7
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Idpa 45 colt

Stay within the rules and go for it.
Questions, check the Website and verify with a Match Director
Have Fun and Be Safe.
Hagen
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Old November 6, 2010, 12:15 PM   #8
Jim Watson
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Chris,

That is the challenge revolver shooters take upon themselves when they shoot a sport dominated by bottom feeders. They get a kick out of it.

By the way, they won't be reloading 4 or 5 times, the maximum number of shots you will be required to fire in one IDPA timed string is 18. You only get what is in the gun and three speedloaders or clips on your person; 24 rounds to get at most 18 hits.
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Old November 6, 2010, 12:50 PM   #9
charleym3
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Oops

I forgot about the weight limit. The redhawk is 46 ounces. too heavy for SSR. So, I'll have TK Custom mill the cylinder for moon clips and shoot it in ESR. It will then shoot 45LC and 45ACP.

One other thing about the caliber on the gun rule. I have a S&W 22-4. The barrel says "45Cal", not "45ACP" So I could shoot it in SSR with 45AR brass and no-moon clips. Definitely don't want to walk away from that brass though.
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Old November 6, 2010, 01:23 PM   #10
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One other thing about the caliber on the gun rule. I have a S&W 22-4. The barrel says "45Cal", not "45ACP" So I could shoot it in SSR with 45AR brass and no-moon clips.

Too funny, lol! Come to think of it, the rules say the ammo must match the caliber - rather than the cartridge - listed on the gun. So I'm still not clear why .45AR can't be used in a gun marked ".45acp".

I think your M22 makes the weight limit too, so for dual use, it's probably the way to go, if you can find SL Variants. The link below was selling them, but apparently, they went pretty fast. You might contact him to see if he's got any left.

http://www.bobmacs.com/variantfit.htm

Whatever you choose, central NC is a great place for competitive wheelgunners, and we're always happy to welcome more! I shoot matches at Caswell mostly, but Frank's as well.
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Old November 6, 2010, 03:00 PM   #11
charleym3
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area shoots

I shoot twice a month at Franks place. Dean is a pretty far haul for me. I live close to lake wheeler in Raleigh.

I'm not sure that I'm willing to give 32$ a copy for the 45AR speedloaders.
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Last edited by charleym3; November 6, 2010 at 03:07 PM.
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Old November 6, 2010, 04:21 PM   #12
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I'm planning on shooting Frank's IDPA match tomorrow.

I've been using my DAO 686 in SSR but recently picked up a k-frame 66 and am trying that for now. If you're interested in dipping your toes in SSR before making any kind of investment, you're welcomed to use my 686 rig. Gun, speedloaders, holster - everything but a belt and entry fee
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Old November 7, 2010, 04:09 PM   #13
charleym3
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equipment

I have everything for SSR except a decent speedloader holder. I've gone down the revolver road several times.
I was at the match for a bit today. A friend of mine wanted to try IDPA out but got cold feet when he saw the setup on bay 2 & 3. We went across the road and perforated some plastic containers working on basic gun handling skills.
I'll be up for the fun match on the 21st.
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Old December 2, 2010, 12:51 PM   #14
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I apologize if this comes over as callous. It is not intended that way.

IDPA is not intended for this. The whole reason IDPA was created was for citizens and LE Personnel could test their carry equipment and defensive skills in a Real World Simulator. They don't want heavily-smithed guns or competitors tweaking equipment and loads for lower times and faster shooting; Simply For lower times and faster shooting. Sure, you'll always get those people. But they want you to use what you carry every day and see how you'll fair against varying real-world situations. Are you truly going to conceal-carry your 45 Colt? That's an honest question. I don't know anyone who would dream of it. Especially when there are so many other calibers with such higher capacity that are so much cheaper to shoot in much more convenient frames.

If you're considering smithing a 45 Colt for competition, I'd consider a competition circuit other than IDPA.

~LT
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Old December 2, 2010, 03:55 PM   #15
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You can shoot .45 ACP and Auto Rim out of the same gun, but not .45 ACP and .45 Colt. Two cartridges of the same "family" - .38 Spl/.357, .44 Spl/Mag, as noted above - are OK, but you can't mix cartridges. No .45 GAP and .45 ACP, for instance. I bought some HKS "slow loaders", to see if I wanted to give ESR a whirl with my 22-4, and it looks like a real pain, especially compared to just dropping-in a moon; the pin in the center of the 'loader hits the pin in the back of the cylinder before the bullets have entered the chambers, so unlike the sort of self-aligning moonclip, some care is required to make sure the 'loader is properly aligned with the cylinder or the rounds aren't going to drop in.
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Old December 2, 2010, 05:01 PM   #16
MrBorland
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Quote:
You can shoot .45 ACP and Auto Rim out of the same gun
You can't compete in SSR by shooting .45AR with a .45acp revolver. The Addendum makes this pretty clear (emphasis mine):


"Ammunition used must match the caliber listed on the gun. The only exceptions would be: .38 special in .357 magnum, .44
special in .44 magnum."
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Old December 2, 2010, 06:48 PM   #17
RickB
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That's an excellent point, but it didn't occur to me that the .45 ACP and AR aren't considered even more closely related than the Spl/Mag siblings, and therefore not requiring a further clarification.
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Old December 3, 2010, 11:45 AM   #18
charleym3
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yes but...

Quote:
Ammunition used must match the caliber listed on the gun.
The caliber printed on my S&W 22-4 is ".45 cal". Taking the rules literally, the .45AR is legal as well as the 45 ACP.
The SL Variant .45 cal speed loaders are designed for .45 AR. If I go to nationals in 2011, I'll be shooting that gun in SSR. It is legal in every respect of the rules.
Now, if I remember correctly, ACP stands for Automatic Colt Pistol. It might be a stretch to say that a "Colt" is a "Colt" and it may not got a pass. If not, the Redhawk can still compete in ESR with 45Colt from speedloaders, the SL Variant also work well with the .45 Colt.

Quote:
Are you truly going to conceal-carry your 45 Colt? That's an honest question. I don't know anyone who would dream of it.
Yes. I have before and will again. In a shoulder holster it works quite well. There is little difference in size and weight between the redhawk and the GP-100 and that is mentally acceptable, so why not. I have also carried a Glock 21 loaded down to 130,000 PF. That makes the recoil much more manageable and the targets can't tell the difference.

They made the rules. I'm playing by them. Is this what they intended? Probably not. If they truely wanted to make the field level, they would have put a $1000 MSRP limit on the firearms and allowed no smithing other than trigger jobs. But that isn't the case. In the end, I'm playing by the rules.
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Old December 3, 2010, 12:23 PM   #19
RickB
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Yeah, any revolver chambered for .45 ACP is also chambered for .45 Auto Rim, so it can't be claimed that you're shooting a "different cartridge" or one for which the gun was not originally chambered, but that doesn't mean the rules addendum wasn't intended to prevent doing it. There have been a number of instances of IDPA making specific rulings that are contrary to either the spirit (moving 10mm from CDP to ESP) or the letter (banning the STI Recoil Master guide rod) of the rules, so it's hard to say if they're trying to keep people from shooting downloaded .45s in SSR with this new rule.
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Old December 3, 2010, 02:01 PM   #20
Jim Watson
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There is one exceedingly weird provision in that ESR caliber addendum.
.45 AR is not listed as allowed for .45 ACP revolvers.
BUT
it says you can shoot 9mm in a .38 Super.

Now there aren't many .38 Super revolvers out there and you would have to load pretty hot to make power floor for a clipfed ESR. Loading 9mm Major to shoot in a Super chamber would be interesting at best, risky at worst. I wonder at IDPA allowing something specifically listed on the SAAMI no-no list of dangerous caliber interchange.
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Old December 3, 2010, 04:49 PM   #21
RickB
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This is from my friend who's the director of IDPA in Canada, and closer to the source than I, posted on the official IDPA forum:

Since the addendum came out we have a ruling that allows the .45acp/.45LC/.454 Casull combo. The combination was just missed. I don't have Robert Ray's email but I am sure he will chime in here.

Take Care

Bob

So, it looks an addendum to the addendum allows interchangeability.
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Old December 3, 2010, 11:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
I apologize if this comes over as callous. It is not intended that way.

IDPA is not intended for this. The whole reason IDPA was created was for citizens and LE Personnel could test their carry equipment and defensive skills in a Real World Simulator. They don't want heavily-smithed guns or competitors tweaking equipment and loads for lower times and faster shooting; Simply For lower times and faster shooting. Sure, you'll always get those people. But they want you to use what you carry every day and see how you'll fair against varying real-world situations. Are you truly going to conceal-carry your 45 Colt? That's an honest question. I don't know anyone who would dream of it. Especially when there are so many other calibers with such higher capacity that are so much cheaper to shoot in much more convenient frames.

If you're considering smithing a 45 Colt for competition, I'd consider a competition circuit other than IDPA.

~LT
I'm not seeing how a .45 Colt revolver is any less practical to carry than a .45 ACP or 10mm revolver, and IDPA has a whole division written specifically for them. Heck, .380 pistols and J frame revolvers only get a half-baked afterthought of a division not even recognized at sanctioned matches.
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Old December 4, 2010, 06:43 AM   #23
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An Observation

I shot IPSC for years. It was simple, bring what you carry (mostly revolvers back then). I was an alternative to NRA PPC. It was a Revolver world. Many of us thought NRA Practical Police Combat was far from the name. We would only load (5) rounds in a six shot revolver. Then some folks said NRA PPC wasn't Practical and IPSC was born. Initially there weren't multiple Classes/Divisions. Revolvers competed at the same time on the same courses as Semi-autos. In life if you're defending yourself with a 1911 and the BG has a J Frame S&W, and your 1911 doesn't "burp", and you put more lead on target than the BG you have a better chance than the BG. Early on the idea of Major/Minor became apparent. Power Factor was determined with Ballistic Pendulums. Then came the competitors who were "buying" skills. Some of the early competitors were sons of Custom shops. They didn't come to compete as much as market their shops weapons. Of course, there were competitors who "weaseled" the rules for the sake of winning. This became easily seen in a course of fire called " El Presidente" . The shooter was required to draw and fire 4 rds each into (3) targets. Then someone thought a 15rd 1911 magazine would make it faster. The fix....El Presidente now had an "Addendum" "with one reload". This was because either no one ever considered guys shooting Berettas or Mod. 59s or they wanted to level the playing field. Many of us who were competing to improve our Combat Skills, wondered who was going to "blow dead" the BG who had a Model 59 when we were carrying Revolvers and 1911s. Meanwhile, the rules were growing and it became more difficult for the Shooter who competes to exist in an environment dominated by Competitors who shoot.
Then there's USPSA (about the same era as IPSC). Sounds like history repeating itself. Just my Opinion.
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Old December 4, 2010, 12:21 PM   #24
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IDPA courses of fire are short - often 6-12 rounds at our club - and that puts an even greater emphasis on gunhandling, such as draw speed, reloading speed, than is often the case in IPSC/IDPA. I shot my first match in Stock Service Revolver division (reloads with speedloaders), and my score was about double what even moderately skilled auto pistol shooters were doing. It is supposed to be competition, and if there's no allowance for multiple divisions, then you're not going to get a lot of shooters who accept the handicap of the revolver, you just won't get any revolver shooters. It was the same in IPSC/USPSA, fifteen years ago; the popularity of the sport was always going to be limited as long as equipment could trump shooting skill. While too many divisions will water-down competition (Single Stack division has just about killed the formerly popular Limited 10 in my area), I think it's the case that you have to have enough different divisions to encourage people to try.
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Old December 7, 2010, 02:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
It is supposed to be competition, and if there's no allowance for multiple divisions, then you're not going to get a lot of shooters who accept the handicap of the revolver, you just won't get any revolver shooters.
That's just it though, IDPA isn't meant to be a competition first and foremost. It was created and designed to be a weapon carrier's training tool to help hone your skills with the weapons you carry with you everyday. They have scoring systems because you've got to measure your proficiency some way. Putting people in order of performance and in different skill classes is intended to provide for a "ladder of success", not a "competition ground to win the match". The times and ranks for IDPA exist for the same reason the X-ring exists, to let you know when it's time to kick it up a notch and push yourself further.

I have to agree with 1911Rocks:
Quote:
Many of us who were competing to improve our Combat Skills, wondered who was going to "blow dead" the BG who had a Model 59 when we were carrying Revolvers and 1911s. Meanwhile, the rules were growing and it became more difficult for the Shooter who competes to exist in an environment dominated by Competitors who shoot.
Then there's USPSA (about the same era as IPSC). Sounds like history repeating itself. Just my Opinion.
It's probably only a matter or time before "Competitors who shoot" are lobbying to relax the rules of IDPA to allow them to bring in their shopped pistols to blow away the stock-everyman that IDPA is intended for.

Honestly, if you regularly carry your .45 Colt concealed, then you belong with it in IDPA. If not, then please leave it at home and bring your carry weapon. If you don't carry a weapon, then please shoot at IPSC or USPSA competitions. There's a reason there isn't a "C" in the accronym.

~LT
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