The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

View Poll Results: What would you carry for self defense?
Lethal Weapon (Gun, knife, etc ) 271 98.19%
Non Lethal Weapon (Pepper spray, taser, etc) 5 1.81%
Voters: 276. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 28, 2010, 06:21 PM   #26
Jeremiah/Az
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Location: Az.
Posts: 509
If I could only carry one thing, it would be my gun. I do carry pepper spray on the off side.

What would hitting someone with your gun do to the gun? Maybe render it inoperable? Bend or break something on the gun?
Jeremiah/Az is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 07:40 PM   #27
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,891
Quote:
What would hitting someone with your gun do to the gun? Maybe render it inoperable? Bend or break something on the gun?
Depends on the gun and what part you hit them with. The underlug on a revolver barrel makes a rather nasty impact weapon.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is online now  
Old October 28, 2010, 08:18 PM   #28
10mmAuto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2010
Posts: 598
Depends, is a Glock 20 in 10mm with 125gr hollowpoints @1600FPS a lethal weapon?
10mmAuto is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 09:51 PM   #29
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
Depends...did you hit them in a vital area?
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 10:09 PM   #30
10mmAuto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2010
Posts: 598
Pretty much anywhere is a vital area with enough gun.
10mmAuto is offline  
Old October 29, 2010, 12:05 AM   #31
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
So if you shot me in the hand I am automatically dead? Or the leg? Or Arm? Or Shoulder? My dad's friend was shot point blank in the stomach twice by a .357. Missed his vitals and he is still walking around today. Though his stomach looks like a giant nasty raggedy back thing....once you see that damage of what a bullet does to a human body, you really want to make sure you pull out the thing ONLY WHEN REALLY NEEDED! Scaring someone like that for life is gonna bother you for the rest of yours if you know that you could of avoided the whole mess. Just say'n...

Stay Safe!
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old October 29, 2010, 12:32 AM   #32
10mmAuto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2010
Posts: 598
Quote:
So if you shot me in the hand I am automatically dead? Or the leg? Or Arm? Or Shoulder? My dad's friend was shot point blank in the stomach twice by a .357. Missed his vitals and he is still walking around today.
Notice the qualifier "pretty much" and "with enough gun". I suppose a gutshot with .50BMG would most likely just be a flesh wound? Also I didn't know to be considered lethal something had to strike you down on the spot as if it were lightning. I guess using this logic rattlesnake bites or the bow and arrow are not lethal either.
10mmAuto is offline  
Old October 29, 2010, 01:27 AM   #33
Sevenfaces
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2010
Posts: 12
Quote:
Notice the qualifier "pretty much" and "with enough gun". I suppose a gutshot with .50BMG would most likely just be a flesh wound? Also I didn't know to be considered lethal something had to strike you down on the spot as if it were lightning. I guess using this logic rattlesnake bites or the bow and arrow are not lethal either.
Rattler bites are rarely fatal.
Sevenfaces is offline  
Old October 29, 2010, 01:41 AM   #34
10mmAuto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2010
Posts: 598
Yes, because of anti venom. Missing the point entirely.
10mmAuto is offline  
Old October 29, 2010, 01:43 AM   #35
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Playing percentages...

... with fatalities won't help with the legal issues.

Most rattler bites aren't fatal. However, throw a rattler at a person and see what the DA charges you with...

Or strike a person with any (serious) blunt object.

These days, a rubber pellet shot from a homemade slingshot got a middle schooler in Florida charged with "Assault with a Deadly Weapon" because the rubber pellet raised a welt on its "victim."

So I wouldn't recommend pistol-whipping as a suggested "non-lethal" approach.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 29, 2010, 07:28 AM   #36
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,680
Quote:
However, there are circumstances in which gunfire, while legally justifiable, is not a practical option.
Yes, I would agree with that general sentiment. I mistakenly thought you were talking about using a firearm in a situation where lethal force was not justifiable.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 29, 2010, 08:13 AM   #37
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
10mmAuto I am getting at the fact that you said pretty much anywhere is a vital area. Not true, the vitals ARE the vital area. If the .50 shot me in the stomach are my chances of living slim? Yes, because a bullet like that CAN hit me in an area where my vitals are. If it hit me in the intestine and someone stopped the bleeding the bacteria from the intestine spewing into my bloodstream would kill me. If it missed that area, then I may live. Nothing is 100% certain, although for one thing I doubt anyone carries such a gun on their person everyday so is this very credible? Perhaps on a battlefield....in a pedestrian scenario? I'd say no! Not that its not possible, just VERY unlikely!
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old October 29, 2010, 11:57 AM   #38
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
I'd like to echo Webleymkv's comment about non-lethal vs. less-lethal.

Blunt force weapons, especially those made for spot impact such as kubotans, knucks, stingers, saps, blackjacks, and the crenelated flashlight bezels, are all potentially lethal. And depending on your local/state laws, carrying one can be enough to show intent to use it, or premeditation, especially if you have indicated desire/intent to use them elsewhere (such as in email or on internet forums).

While it's important to protect yourself, it's also important to protect yourself.
booker_t is offline  
Old October 30, 2010, 08:35 PM   #39
Couzin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 2006
Location: Terrell, Texas
Posts: 232
Quote:
I am getting at the fact that you said pretty much anywhere is a vital area. Not true, the vitals ARE the vital area... If it missed that area, then I may live... Nothing is 100% certain, although for one thing I doubt anyone carries such a gun on their person everyday so is this very credible? Perhaps on a battlefield....in a pedestrian scenario? I'd say no! Not that its not possible, just VERY unlikely!
Big Tom -- You need to know the difference between 'shoot to stop (a threat)' and 'shoot to kill.' Hitting an area of the body to incapacitate immediately is the goal, and hitting vital areas is the quickest way to accomplish this - although, a round anywhere on the body may have the objective met - depending on the individual and how cranked up they are. 10mmAuto is saying any area is a vital area if the threat is stopped. A round to the hand (or even a missed shot), if it ends the threat, is enough. You don't get to go all bad az cowboy gangbanger and just finish killin someone cuz they needed killin'!!! And, "on a battlefield"?? -- seriously - warzones are not video games dude.

Last edited by Couzin; October 30, 2010 at 08:44 PM.
Couzin is offline  
Old October 30, 2010, 08:52 PM   #40
Couzin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 2006
Location: Terrell, Texas
Posts: 232
Remember:

Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” -- Colonel Jeff Cooper
Couzin is offline  
Old October 31, 2010, 10:07 AM   #41
OlCrip
Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2010
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 68
Self Defense

I carry a cane all the time and am quite proficient with it. When I was Shore Patrol I became an artist with a nightstick. I modified a few techniques and sought additional help from a professional. The cane is a constant companion. So are many of the knives I've built. Had just enough training with the knife to be dangerous. All are capable of being thrown accurately at "inside the house" distances. Only bad thing about throwing a knife though is that once it's thrown it's of no more use to you. Also carry a mini-sap. About 8 1/2" long. It'll break an arm or knee. So will my cane. I'm not licensed to carry a handgun, although they ARE in the house.

One bad guy became the laughing stock of the Police that showed up one night. When they arrested him he had a broken wrist, severly enlarged testicles and a knee that generally isn't supposed to point that way. I'm just an old man that refuses to be a victim. Cops got a big kick out of seeing this kid in all manner of disarray. Just before the officers arrived I told the kid (kid, he was 26) that he really sucked at this line of work and that he really needed to seek employment in another line of work. He did. He became a guest of the State of Michigan for 5-7. Makes really nice license plates.
__________________
"It is the province of knowledge to speak and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen".... Oliver Wendell Holmes
OlCrip is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 03:24 PM   #42
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
Quote:
What would hitting someone with your gun do to the gun? Maybe render it inoperable? Bend or break something on the gun?
A good steel 1911 will just about kill a person if hit on the head with the right force.

In this day I would hesitate to hit anyone with anything other than a fist and only after he hit me with witness's watching. Most times you will find the event on youtube..... we live in a sue you society where no one is responsible for their actions except for me..... You hit someone, they call 911, you may go to jail. Be careful out there.
markj is offline  
Old November 2, 2010, 03:43 PM   #43
Terry A
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2008
Location: Washington, Pa
Posts: 757
103-1 as of this post.

That may be some sort of record as far as percentage of members agreeing on a subject here at TFL!
__________________
2 Thes 3:16 "Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all! "
Terry A is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 12:33 AM   #44
sakeneko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Nevada
Posts: 644
You left out the third choice:

c) both of the above.

I carry both pepper spray and a handgun any time I leave the house except for those rare occasions when I'm going somewhere where one or both are prohibited. Gives me more options. I *like* having choices.
sakeneko is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 02:26 AM   #45
micksis86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2009
Posts: 420
I've been sprayed with OC spray on a training course whilst in the service and trust me it hurts like a bitch!
__________________
Never argue with morons, they will lower you down to their level and beat you with experience.
micksis86 is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 04:07 AM   #46
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Pepper spray...

... for me, it wasn't so much the pain, as the seemingly unending flow of mucus from my nose and tears from my eyes.

The stuff is not fun.

But I'm not so sure it would have been instantly debilitating. Partially disabling, yes; debilitating, no - at least not in the training exposure level I was subjected to.
MLeake is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 09:32 AM   #47
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,933
If you need pepper spray or another less-lethal force tool and don't have it or use it, you'll get beat up or bitten or somesuch.

If you need a gun or another lethal force tool and don't have it, you'll probably never need anything ever again.

That's why if you could really only carry one of the two (a nonsensical premise), the gun makes more sense. Less-lethal options are useful in a wider variety of situations, but the reason we carry deadly force isn't because we think we'll need it (statistically quite unlikely) but because the consequences would be fatal if we needed it & didn't have it.

Although humans are tool users and it's usually better to have proper tools than to not have them, a few basic physical skills can usually provide adequate coverage through non-lethal force levels. This is especially true if you know how to use the environment around you to good advantage. If you need a non-lethal force multiplier, look around. There's almost certainly a non-lethal but decently effective weapon near you right now if you know what to look for.

Legally speaking, firearms are always lethal force, whether you aim at the guy's center mass or his left big toe. Physically he might survive the big-toe shot (though nothing's certain), but legally it's the same thing. Improvised instruments such as canes and frying pans can certainly be considered lethal force if you use them that way, but the courts are just as likely to see them as a non-lethal force level if you use them as such and your lawyer articulates your actions properly.

Best bet: Make sure the situation warrants the level of force you plan to use, then use that level as fast and as efficiently and as hard as you can. Don't dither.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 10:04 AM   #48
isanchez2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 344
Quote:
Best bet: Make sure the situation warrants the level of force you plan to use, then use that level as fast and as efficiently and as hard as you can. Don't dither.

pax
+1
isanchez2008 is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 08:11 PM   #49
bmxslyguy187
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 30
According to my roommate the lawyer, lethal force should only be used if similar or greater than lethal force is presented. And in this case, it should be succinctly used, to lessen family lawsuits after lethal force was used.


Therefore, I do only carry lethal force. If a need arises where I don't need to use lethal force then I will talk/walk/move my way out of the situation.
__________________
S&W .40 VE, Mossberg 500 Tactical, Sears Special 1941 .22 Model 29, Remington Speedmaster .22, Bausch & Lomb 30-06
bmxslyguy187 is offline  
Old November 3, 2010, 08:53 PM   #50
ncpatriot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2009
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 350
I have pepper spray but it's no good against the wind and wouldn't be much good to have to get so close to use it. I carry both in my vehicle but usually just my gun when walking around. I try to watch where I go and avoid potential situations. I something does start up, merely showing the pistol will deter a lot of people. I doubt showing the spray would stop anyone in his tracks.
__________________
Remember the American heroes of Flight 93.
ncpatriot is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14032 seconds with 8 queries