The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

View Poll Results: What would you carry for self defense?
Lethal Weapon (Gun, knife, etc ) 271 98.19%
Non Lethal Weapon (Pepper spray, taser, etc) 5 1.81%
Voters: 276. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 27, 2010, 03:14 PM   #1
Ray33
Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Posts: 33
What Do You Carry For Protection

So I got in an argument with my brother in law the other day about this. We were talking about if for some reason you only have enough room to carry the bare minimum meaning you can't carry a gun and a non lethal weapon, one or the other what would be best.

He was saying a non lethal weapon like mace would be more practical most of the time because although mace isn't always effective neither is a gun and they'll be a lot more issues if you use deadly force.

I was saying that a lethal weapon would be better because if I couldn't handle someone attacking me with my fists what good would a non lethal weapon do?

So my question is if you can have only a lethal weapon or a non lethal weapon for most situations which would you choose?
Ray33 is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 03:22 PM   #2
IMightBeWrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2009
Posts: 603
I would prefer to have both, a small pepper spray keychain plus my primary defensive sidearm. Of the two, though, if I had to pick one it would be the pistol. There's no reason not to have both, though. Not every threat is going to be made with a deadly weapon. Some drunk might just want to beat you down bare handed and mace would not be excessive force in that situation.
IMightBeWrong is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 03:53 PM   #3
Sefner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 769
Tasers are illegal in my state (MI), and pepper spray is illegal on the campus of the college that I go to.

Not that I would carry either, but this poll is not necessarily representative of what people "want" to carry but rather what people do carry, which can be influenced by local laws, regulations, etc.

Quote:
I was saying that a lethal weapon would be better because if I couldn't handle someone attacking me with my fists what good would a non lethal weapon do?
This is a pretty poor argument. Have you seen what tasers can do to people? On COPS a few days ago they tazed a 300+ pound guy who was resisting arrest. His demeanor totally changed. He immediately complied and actually started crying due to the pain. Another guy was hopped up on drugs, drunk, etc, and was resisting, and when he got sprayed (don't know if it was OC or mace), his eyes immediately swelled shut and he couldn't see. He then decided that fighting a police officer while blind was not a good idea. He did not show any signs of being in any pain, he didn't even put his hands up to shield or rub his eyes, but he sure as hell couldn't open them.

Also, a lot of people carry OC spray for dogs, animals, etc. I sure wouldn't wanna go fisticuffs with a bear, but I might have a chance to run away if its eyes swell shut from OC foam and his airways swell to prevent efficient breathing.

I do see the point you're making though, that "if a threat is not deadly, be careful using any weapons". This is convenient in theory but hardly works in real life. Simply put, non-lethal weapons definitely have their place in defense situations.
__________________
gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner
Sefner is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 04:11 PM   #4
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,650
The idea of OC is that it gives you some distance.

The problem of fists is that you don't want to bring fists to a knife fight.

Next, fists can actually do lethal or extreme damage to someone who might be better sent off on his way with a dose of spray. Do you want to punch a wino who gets seriously injured and your action isn't seen as appropriate?

The ending question is a false dichotomy - unless forced by circumstance - carry both.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 05:33 PM   #5
Jo6pak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2010
Location: West Coast...of WI
Posts: 1,464
I've often concidered that pepper spray is a better defense than a firearm. simply for the reason that there is less second guessing it's use. Basically it comes down to, "when in doubt spray away and retreat." I think a person is more willing to use non-lethal defenses in a time of need, without fear of making the wrong choice.

Also, there a alot of places that forbid CCW, and don't ban non-lethal.

Granted there cannot be a blanket solution for all situations, but it's worth noting the advantages.
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.
Jo6pak is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 05:43 PM   #6
IMightBeWrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2009
Posts: 603
I think I'd be more comfortable with just a firearm because in terms of non lethal self defense methods I can run away one way or another. I'd rather my 2 choices of action be run away or lethal force than run away or spray and then run away still.
IMightBeWrong is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 05:47 PM   #7
TheGoldenState
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 1,191
I dont carry a gun because its against the law. I dont carry anything for protection whatsoever. Im young and in good shape tho, and havent got into a situation that i couldnt handle myself in……..YET
__________________
The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...
TheGoldenState is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 06:15 PM   #8
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,667
Pepper spray, etc. is usually looked at as non-lethal force from a legal perspective (check your state laws though as this can vary). It is appropriate when you are being attacked with force that is not likely to result in death or serious bodily injury.

A gun is lethal force. It is appropriate when you have an immediate, reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury.

In the event, I can only carry one item, I'd carry the firearm - because if the force being used isn't likely to result in death or serious bodily injury, I can take that. If the force being used is likely to result in serious bodily injury or death, then I want to stop that as quickly and as effectively as I can.

Having said that, pepper spray and a firearm offer you more options than either one by themselves and it is nice to have options.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 06:18 PM   #9
HeroHog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2008
Location: Ruston, LA
Posts: 485
I'm in a wheelchair, can't stand for but a minute or so before I am in so much pain I can't stand it, my shoulders are shot so I can't punch, push or pull so fighting and running are out. I just don't think poking him with my cane or pocket knife is going to help much in a self defense situation!
__________________
Speedy AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"
NRA, LSA, USN-DAV
Thanks for supporting Skidmark!
HeroHog is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 06:39 PM   #10
MacGille
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 976
I carry a yawara stick. Easy to use, easy to carry, even in CA it's not a concealed weapon. Devastating if used well. Look it up.
__________________
If ye love wealth better than Liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animated contest of Freedom, go from us in Peace. We ask not your counsel or Arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. --Samuel Adams--<*ixoye><
MacGille is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 06:47 PM   #11
TheGoldenState
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 1,191
MaCGille,

I see your yawara


and

match you a roll of quarters


All kidding aside, thanks for the info.

It appears to be more of a first packing tool than anything?
__________________
The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...
TheGoldenState is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 07:00 PM   #12
Jim March
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 14, 1999
Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA
Posts: 7,306
A 160 lumen flashlight powered by a pair of CR123 batteries will do anything a kubaton, yawara stick or roll of quarters will do, and at night will also blind somebody temporarily. That's the king of that class of weaponry.

It doubles as a flashlight in case you have to shoot at night .
__________________
Jim March
Jim March is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 07:26 PM   #13
NWPilgrim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,144
It's not like we are police officers with a duty belt to hang multiple instruments on: flashlight, stick, pepper spray, pistol, handcuffs, etc.

Since I have limited space and weight to carry concealed and patrolling is not my job, I opt for what we give me the most advantage. If I am attacked I am not interested in using the least amount of force necessary. I am interested in using as much force as legal to put a stop to it as quickly as possible. I may have grandkids with me or my wife.

If given the time I would try de-fusing the situation, or repel minor force with my hands. But if the attack is serious then I am going to max force and stopping it. I am not going ot haul around four different weapons/instruments and try to decide exactly the "right" amount of force to apply. Police are trained and equipped to do exactly that. I am not a police officer.
__________________
"The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition."
- James Madison
NWPilgrim is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 07:45 PM   #14
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
I carry some knives with me, so easy to carry. And I can get away with it because knives are legal, guns need permits, plus I am still 1 month away from turning 21. My stanley knife has a Duel purpose, the swiss army knife I use more as a tool. The one in the middle is my current primary weapon...sad to say no guns yet...







__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 07:46 PM   #15
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
I also have this cold steel FGX push blade. Yes its plastic, but strong, light and almost undetectable unless completely "frisked".



Very comfortable to wield, and easy to use!

__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 09:05 PM   #16
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,883
I actually have a problem with the term "non-lethal" because weapons which are often placed in this category often have the capacity, under the right set of circumstances, to be lethal. Pepper spraying someone with a respiratory problem can trigger a physiological response that is potentially lethal, tasering someone with a heart condition could conceivably kill them, and a good sharp rap upside the head with a baton can very easily be fatal. Because of this, I would be very hesitant to use any weapon at all unless the situation justified lethal force.

Also, many "less lethal" weapons require a greater deal of training than one might think in order to be used effectively. I know of one case, locally, in which a police officer attempted to use a taser on a combative ER patient. Unfortunately for the officer, one of the taser leads got tangled in the legs of a chair that the suspect had in his hand. Because of this, the circuit was not completed and no shock was given to the suspect. The suspect then managed to grab the wires and jerk the taser out of the officer's hand and run off with it.

Finally, just because a weapon is a lethal one, that does not necessarily mean that it cannot be used in a non-lethal capacity. The good old-fashioned pistol whip is, I believe, an often underrated tactic.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 09:49 PM   #17
GM1967
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Delaware - formerly NJ
Posts: 221
Sefner said:

Quote:
Another guy was hopped up on drugs, drunk, etc, and was resisting, and when he got sprayed (don't know if it was OC or mace), his eyes immediately swelled shut and he couldn't see. He then decided that fighting a police officer while blind was not a good idea. He did not show any signs of being in any pain, he didn't even put his hands up to shield or rub his eyes, but he sure as hell couldn't open them
I suspect he was in pain. My own experience with OC is that it's painful, blinding, burning, makes you want to rub your eyes, lasts a long time (wasn't completely right for about 2-3 hours), and can start burning again when you think it's worn off.

However, some people are less affected by it than others. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum have been squirted with OC at least once (it's usually required for certification). I've heard that some people are barely affected by it, which is hard for me to believe when I think of how it felt
GM1967 is offline  
Old October 27, 2010, 10:46 PM   #18
Teuthis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 9, 2008
Location: Southern Arizona
Posts: 537
I carry a gun. I have no intention of getting into altercations; and would only react aggressively if I were in mortal danger. If that event arises I will not be concerned about lethal or nonlethal. It will be a last resort. Otherwise I rely upon a keen sense of my surroundings and staying out of trouble.
__________________
Oderint dum Metuant
Teuthis is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 01:48 AM   #19
k31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2010
Location: utah for the time being
Posts: 213
there are some woodland creatures who even the big bears dont mess with that are usually the most docile and peaceful but are well armed and not ashamed to pack just like the porcupine im simple and easy going but put me in a corner and ill quill a fool
i am a very straight forward person but polite and easy going at the same time i am straight forward and when it comes down to me or him well thats easy the first three rounds hit the dirt right next to him and when the dust clears if he hasnt run i promise the next 11 rounds will make sure he isnt going any where
i carry a smith n Weston sigma ve 40 with hollows no +p i dont want them to leave the other guy
but if im hiking i carry a 1911 fmj or .22 with snake shot depending where i go
__________________
"the best shooting firearm is the firearm you shoot best" Tony Marr
k31 is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 06:13 AM   #20
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
I wouldn't carry anything....

... that I wasn't fully comfortable using.

For instance, how much do I have to worry about using spray, if I'm downwind of the BG?

Or, how do I practice with a Taser to gain proficiency? How is a Taser best employed (if it can be) against multiple BGs?

Or, what thickness of clothing will keep a stun gun from getting reliable results?

That kind of thing...

So, whatever I'd carry, it would have to be something I feel I can use, effectively, under duress. This means things I can practice with.

Unfortunately, this really means fists/hands, knives, and guns.

Given the limits imposed by the OP, I'd take a gun, if I could carry only one item. But, as others have noted, there are very, very few circumstances that would impose such a limitation. I usually have a gun, spare ammo, and a folding knife. Although, some places that honor my permits don't allow spray, or Tasers, or knives for that matter....

I probably should invest in some OC spray, but would also need to get trained up in its use, for those locales where I could carry spray.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 08:51 AM   #21
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,667
Quote:
Finally, just because a weapon is a lethal one, that does not necessarily mean that it cannot be used in a non-lethal capacity. The good old-fashioned pistol whip is, I believe, an often underrated tactic.
From a purely legal perspective, hitting someone with a 32oz chunk of metal is likely to be regarded as lethal force, unless you hit them in such a way that it couldn't possibly cause serious bodily injury - and even then the mere fact that you possess a firearm and are beating someone with it is likely to give people an "immediate and reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury."

So from my perspective, it looks like pistol-whipping someone would often be viewed as lethal force and even in the rare circumstance where it didn't amount to lethal force in the eyes of the law, it would likely be seen as justification for someone else to use lethal force against you.

So I've got to question how viable of a tactic it is to try and use a firearm in a situation where lethal force is not called for?
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 01:29 PM   #22
Eagle0711
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2010
Posts: 782
Choices available

It would be a gun. But if that were not possible or even if you have a gun I would choose a knife. Tactical folders are popular. You should get some trainning to be effective.
The knife allows a contimuum of choices. It does take master keys to successfuly make the technique work. You don't have to cut the attacker.
1.- It may be used as a roll of quarters to punch.
2.- Butt stroke to chin.
3. - Butt used as a yawra stick to nerve centers.
4.- Blade to cut above eyes to cause profuse bleeding into the eyes; he can't see you. Easily sewn up with no permanant damage.
5.- Cut behind the knee or siatic nerve just below buttocks as you walk by at your 2:00 o'clock position. He can't chase you.
6.- Quick slash to his wrist so he will drop weapon.
7.- Slash sccross waist. Guts will fall out. Non- fatal. Easily sewn up. Out of room, but the throat is next. Good choices.
Eagle0711 is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 04:01 PM   #23
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
Me. I always take me along, so far I havent been killed (was shot and stabbed). Me has the ability to use many items as weapons, me has the ability to decide on what I need to do in any situation. Havent needed a gun so far and it has been over 50 years now...I have guns at home. Guns in the truck and barn but with out me they are useless lumps of metal.
markj is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 05:20 PM   #24
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,883
Quote:
So from my perspective, it looks like pistol-whipping someone would often be viewed as lethal force and even in the rare circumstance where it didn't amount to lethal force in the eyes of the law, it would likely be seen as justification for someone else to use lethal force against you.

So I've got to question how viable of a tactic it is to try and use a firearm in a situation where lethal force is not called for?
As I said in my previous post, I would be extremely hesitant to draw any weapon in a circumstance in which lethal force is not legally justifiable. However, there are circumstances in which gunfire, while legally justifiable, is not a practical option. For example, you witnessed a woman down on the ground being attacked by a large man on top of her. While in most jurisdictions you would likely be legally justified in using lethal force to stop the man's actions, gunfire is not practical because there is too great a risk of hitting the very person you're trying to assist. Running up and clubbing the attacker with your pistol, on the other hand, would still be legally justifiable but a much more practical option.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old October 28, 2010, 05:30 PM   #25
Jimmy10mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2010
Location: Greenacres, FL
Posts: 906
With the amount of robbery/murders in my neck of the woods lethal is the only way to fly. No question about it IMO.
__________________
Quote:
"the 380 in your pocket is better than the 45 you left at home." posted by, mavracer
Jimmy10mm is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14259 seconds with 8 queries