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Old December 25, 2014, 02:14 PM   #1
steve4102
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Constitutional Carry vs Business Owners

I have a couple questions about Constitution Carry and the property rights of others, specifically CC in KY.

It is my understanding that Open Carry is guaranteed by the KY State Constitution and one can open carry "anywhere", whereas Concealed carry comes with certain restrictions. True?

I have read on other defensive carry forums that because Open Carry is a Constitution Right in KY, that businesses that are "open" to the public cannot even post a "No Open Carry" sign. It has been said the a business can "post" a No Concealed Carry sign, but they cannot post a "No Open" carry sign as that would violate the KY State Constitution.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, but I am not 100% sure. I have asked some of these defensive carry guys if they had any State Statutes or Constitutional lingo, that would back this up. I was told there is no state statute prohibiting a No Open Carry sign, as it is not needed because the State Constitution already forbids it.

I find this hard to believe, but I am at a loss as to where to go/search to find if they are indeed correct or not.

Is it even possible that Constitutional Open Carry overrides the Rights of private business owners to post a No Open Carry sign?
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Old December 25, 2014, 03:52 PM   #2
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As far as I know, in every state the laws pertaining to permit/license requirements (if any) are separate from the laws regarding where one can carry. I'm not a lawyer nor am I an expert, but I've never heard of any jurisdiction that allows open carry in places where concealed carry is restricted or prohibited. The concept just doesn't make sense.

Think about it. If a state allows open carry without a license but requires a permit to carry concealed (such as, for example, Pennsylvania) -- why would anyone get a concealed carry license if they could go places open carrying where they wouldn't be allowed with a concealed firearm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
I have read on other defensive carry forums that because Open Carry is a Constitution Right in KY, that businesses that are "open" to the public cannot even post a "No Open Carry" sign. It has been said the a business can "post" a No Concealed Carry sign, but they cannot post a "No Open" carry sign as that would violate the KY State Constitution.
But constitutions define the limits of government powers. A state's constitution can't override a property owner's freedom to prohibit weapons in/on his property. If that were possible, wouldn't there also be constitutional issues with restaurants that post "No shirt, no shoes -- no service" signs?
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Old December 25, 2014, 04:08 PM   #3
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private property owners have the right to ban the carrying of firearms on their premises. the law regarding legal posting varies by state.
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Old December 25, 2014, 04:51 PM   #4
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your constitutional rights only apply in public places.
carry laws, whether open or concealed likewise only apply to public places. Business properties are private properties, they may allow the public access but are not public places and can prohibit anything they want. This is true for the entire United States. You can be 100% certain what you heard was not true.

What you really should be asking is if no guns signs carry the force of the law? A business can post any sign they want regardless of the constitution.

An excellent resource for current carry laws for each state is handgunlaw.us you can read the Kentucky specific article here: http://handgunlaw.us/states/kentucky.pdf
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Old December 25, 2014, 04:53 PM   #5
steve4102
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They have gone so far as to claim that a Business cannot even post a No Open Carry Sign, but they can post a no Concealed carry sign.
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Old December 25, 2014, 05:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
They have gone so far as to claim that a Business cannot even post a No Open Carry Sign, but they can post a no Concealed carry sign.
they can post whatever sign they want.
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Old December 25, 2014, 08:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
It is my understanding that Open Carry is guaranteed by the KY State Constitution and one can open carry "anywhere", whereas Concealed carry comes with certain restrictions. True?
It's a stretch to assume Kentucky allows carry in prisons, courtrooms, or on federal property, nor that they prohibit private businesses from banning it.

That said, the state code seems a little confusing. The only prohibitions I see involve those for whom concealed carry licenses have been issued. Is this an oversight in the legislation, or am I missing something?
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Old December 25, 2014, 08:57 PM   #8
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I have no problem honoring someone's sigh to keep guns out. I will, many other places want my business.
It's common courtesy, and the last thing we need is a group showing up with guns in a store claiming they have a right to be there... cops get called, bad day for everyone, especially those who weren't there, but have to suffer more legislation they didn't cause.

As Rodney King said, "Can't we all get along?"
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Old December 25, 2014, 09:33 PM   #9
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a little off topic. but even though I have heard that Target and Starbucks have caved to pressure(well, maybe Starbucks didn't require pressure), I have yet to see a sing posted at any of their locations around here. and I frequent both companies a lot throughout the city. outside of schools and medical, I don't ever see any no weapons signs
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Old December 25, 2014, 09:39 PM   #10
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Target and Starbucks didn't cave along with Chipotle. They just asked people to be respectful of others. No need to sling ARs aroybd
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Old December 25, 2014, 11:42 PM   #11
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The topic at hand is Kentucky law. We've been over the Starbucks/Target thing. There's no need to rehash it here.
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Old December 26, 2014, 02:49 AM   #12
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Section 1 of the Kentucky Constitution states, in relevant part:
Quote:
All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned: . . .

Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.
The Kentucky Supreme Court has specifically held the right to possess firearms does not extend to felons and there are legislative restrictions on open carry in certain "sensitive areas" such as schools. Concealed carry requires a license subject to several exceptions such as schools. For more information on this, look at http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/c...trictions.html.

Carry in glove box, center console, map box, etc. of a car is, by statute, not considered concealed carry and a CCL is not required.
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Old December 26, 2014, 08:19 AM   #13
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Thanks, KyJim.
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Old December 26, 2014, 09:08 AM   #14
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I have been following the links provided and found this.

(16) Except as provided in KRS 527.020, no license issued pursuant to this section
shall authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into:
(a) Any police station or sheriff's office;
(b) Any detention facility, prison, or jail;
(c) Any courthouse, solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom, or
court proceeding;
(d) Any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special
district; or any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of theGeneral Assembly, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a
member of the body, holding a concealed deadly weapon license, from
carrying a concealed deadly weapon at a meeting of the body of which he
or she is a member;


I can't find anything on Open Carry here.
Is it legal to Open carry in the above places?
Everything I have found spells out Concealed carry and ignores Open Carry except, Schools and Bars. Does this mean that OC is actually allowed in places like Court rooms?
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Old December 26, 2014, 10:46 AM   #15
Sigowner
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Quote:
I have read on other defensive carry forums that because Open Carry is a Constitution Right in KY, that businesses that are "open" to the public cannot even post a "No Open Carry" sign. It has been said the a business can "post" a No Concealed Carry sign, but they cannot post a "No Open" carry sign as that would violate the KY State Constitution.



I suggest you look at the site posted here. My reading of KY State Statute 237.104 is clear.....no restrictions and the state exercised its power for Preemption.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/chapter.aspx?id=38384
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Old December 26, 2014, 11:00 AM   #16
steve4102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigowner
My reading of KY State Statute 237.104 is clear.....no restrictions...
237.104 Rights to acquire, carry, and use deadly weapons not to be impaired
-- Seizure of deadly weapons prohibited -- Application of section.
(1) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a
period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any
other time, have the right to revoke, suspend, limit the use of, or otherwise
impair the validity of the right of any person to purchase, transfer, loan, own,
possess, carry, or use a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition
component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument.
(2) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a
period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any
other time, take, seize, confiscate, or impound a firearm, firearm part,
ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument from any person.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the taking of an item specified
in subsection (1) or (2) of this section from a person who is:
(a) Forbidden to possess a firearm pursuant to KRS 527.040;
(b) Forbidden to possess a firearm pursuant to federal law;
(c) Violating KRS 527.020;
(d) In possession of a stolen firearm;
(e) Using a firearm in the commission of a separate criminal offense; or
(f) Using a firearm or other weapon in the commission of an offense under
KRS Chapter 150.
Effective:July 12, 2006
History: Created 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 240, sec. 7, effective July 12, 2006.


http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=43448

527.020 Carrying concealed deadly weapon

Is not 5 (a) restrictions?
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Old December 26, 2014, 11:45 AM   #17
Sigowner
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Quote:
Is not 5 (a) restrictions?

No, because 237.104 is a general law and 527.020 is a specific modification only as it pertains to a "concealed weapon".
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Old December 26, 2014, 12:02 PM   #18
steve4102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigowner
No, because 237.104 is a general law and 527.020 is a specific modification only as it pertains to a "concealed weapon".
So are you saying there are no "restrictions" on open carry in KY?

This says that there are restrictions to Open Carry in schools.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=19962

This says that there are restrictions to open carry in bars.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=40574
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Old December 26, 2014, 02:11 PM   #19
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Yes, you are correct. KRS 527 appears to be the exception bill to 237.
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Old December 26, 2014, 08:47 PM   #20
steve4102
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I was given this today. What do ya think?

https://docjt.ky.gov/legal/documents...Carryingv2.pdf
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Old December 26, 2014, 09:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
I was given this today. What do ya think?

https://docjt.ky.gov/legal/documents...Carryingv2.pdf
I think it doesn't have anything to do with your question.

You asked, essentially, whether, based on provisions of the Kentucky Constitution, a business open to the public could bar openly carried guns. The statutes and cases cited address the legality of carrying guns in public. I didn't see anything preventing someone with a property interest declining permission to enter on his property if someone is carrying a gun.

It's well established that the United States Constitution does not regulate private conduct. Therefore, the Second Amendment can not prevent a business owner from barring firearms on his premises.

State constitutions have to a limited extent been applied to private conduct. If there were a Supreme Court of Kentucky cases applying the RKBA provisions to private conduct, it hasn't been cited in the material you've posted.

It's true that a business denying access to someone because he is legally carrying a gun is discriminatory, BUT --
  • In general, discrimination is not illegal. You do it all the time. Every time you decide to shop in this store rather than that, you have discriminated. Every time you decide to buy this rather than that, you have discriminated.

  • Businesses discriminate all the time too, and legally. Apple stores discriminate against people who want to buy a PC by only selling Apple computers. Many restaurant discriminate against Orthodox Jews or Muslims by not strictly following the dietary laws of those religions. Many restaurants also discriminate against persons not wearing shirts and/or shoes by not admitting them. Tiffany discriminates against poor people in the prices they charge. Businesses also discriminate whenever they hire one person instead of another who has applied for the job.

  • Discrimination is merely choosing one thing over another or rejecting a possible choice. Discrimination is the very essence of freedom and private property. It is the right to choose. It is the right to exclude. It is the right to decide how you want to use your property.

  • Discrimination is perfectly legal, unless some law makes it illegal. There are laws that make discrimination illegal on various, specifically identified and defined bases, illegal -- at least if you're a business open to the public or an employer or in some other specified category. In general, gun owners aren't a protected class.

  • The statutes are specific as to rights protected, against what conduct, and for whom. If something you think is a right isn't included in the statute, and if some private conduct should be included but isn't, and if some class of people you think ought to be protected isn't included in the statute, that "right" and/or that class of people aren't protected by the statute against that conduct.

So at this point I see no reason to conclude that a business otherwise open to the public in Kentucky can't bar persons who are legally openly carrying a gun.
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Old December 26, 2014, 09:30 PM   #22
steve4102
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Thanks Frank, but I basically had two questions.

1) It is my understanding that Open Carry is guaranteed by the KY State Constitution and one can open carry "anywhere", whereas Concealed carry comes with certain restrictions. True?

2)because Open Carry is a Constitution Right in KY, that businesses that are "open" to the public cannot even post a "No Open Carry" sign?
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Old December 26, 2014, 09:51 PM   #23
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Quote:
1) It is my understanding that Open Carry is guaranteed by the KY State Constitution and one can open carry "anywhere", whereas Concealed carry comes with certain restrictions. True?
False.

1. Even if it were true that KY law doesn't restrict it, there are federal laws that restrict where you can carry a gun.
2. Even if it were true that KY law doesn't restrict it, a property owner can restrict it in at least some cases.
3. You, yourself posted two examples of KY law that restrict fireams, including those that are openly carried.
Quote:
2)because Open Carry is a Constitution Right in KY, that businesses that are "open" to the public cannot even post a "No Open Carry" sign?
False. Frank's last post addresses this question fairly comprehensively.
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Old December 26, 2014, 10:01 PM   #24
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Open carry is constitutionally protected here in Kentucky but concealed carry is by permit only & NOT constitutionally protected.
Prohibited places are enumerated in KRS statutes, which includes court rooms, police & sheriff offices, any room where a legislative body is holding their meetings, any property or building owned/leased by the federal government. This applies to ALL TYPES OF CARRY.
Private businesses, open to the public or not, can post signage to prohibit weapons but do not carry the force of law. If however, you decide to carry here, you can be asked to leave. If you refuse, you can be charged with criminal trespassing.
See KRS Chapter 237
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Old December 27, 2014, 05:25 PM   #25
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The part in the last post about being asked to leave or then charged with trespass seems to be common among many states with similar laws on the books.
Private property rights trump your carry rights
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