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Old October 25, 2010, 01:02 AM   #1
.300 Weatherby Mag
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My letter to Remington Arms Co... Regarding my R700 and 870

Remington Arms Company, Inc.
Consumer Service Department
870 Remington Drive
P.O. Box 700
Madison, NC 27025-0700

Dear Remington Customer Service,

I’m beginning to lose faith in the Remington Brand after the negative experiences I’ve had with the last two products purchased from your company. Before going into my issues, I want to give a little bit of background on my experiences with Remington products. The first shotgun, I ever fired was an 870, and from then on I’ve been a loyal Remington customer. The first centerfire rifle I fired was one of my father’s Remington 700s. I came to expect a very high level performance after shooting my father’s Remington rifles and shotguns. When I was old enough to buy a rifle and a shotgun, I went out and bought an 870 Wingmaster and a model 700 CDL chambered in .243 Winchester. I saved for many months so that I could purchase these two firearms and I ended up buying each brand new from a local dealer. After taking out each of these firearms my confidence in Remington was deeply shaken.

The model 700 is chambered in .243 Winchester, and was a great disappointment right out of the box. The trigger was unreliable and had a pull weight of 14 pounds and felt like it was full of metal shavings. The best accuracy this rifle would produce off a Sinclair Competition Rest was a 5 shot group of 6 inches at 100 yards. By the standards of the other Remington rifles I’ve shot, this is unacceptable. With every other Remington 700, I’ve had the chance to shoot, I’ve been able to achieve excellent levels of accuracy often with groups of 1 inch or less at 100 yards. I tried every variety of Remington ammunition hoping to find a load that would shrink the groups, to no avail. I also tried of a variety of the competitor’s ammunition, with similar results, nothing less than 6 inches at 100 yards. To take out the human factor, I had others shoot this rifle off of their benchrest type rests, with identical results. I then had my father shoot it, a former ranked competitive shooter. By this time, the rifle had several hundred rounds through it, with no improvement in accuracy.

The rifle was sent back to your customer service department for inspection and repair. When the rifle was returned, there was no discernable improvement in either trigger function or accuracy. At this point I was very disappointed, that my rifle was still producing substandard accuracy and still had the horrible trigger. I understand the need to keep the trigger pull weight up for liability reasons, but a 14 pound, gritty, and unreliable trigger on an $800 rifle is completely unacceptable. The trigger was so rough that it was hard to know when the gun would go off. The gun would then sometimes lag between the time you squeezed the trigger and the time it went off. By checking the serial number, I determined the rifle was produced just prior to the release of the X-Mark adjustable trigger, so my trigger is not user adjustable. Adjusting triggers is beyond my ability and at no time did I attempt to modify the rifle myself.

I knew part of the accuracy problem was the atrociously heavy, gritty and sometimes unreliable trigger pull. After not getting adequate service from the factory itself, I took the rifle to my local Remington Factory Authorized Service Center, to have the rifle worked on so it would at least fire reliably. I then took the rifle out to the range again, still there was no improvement in accuracy. I took the rifle back the same service center, hoping that they could find another solution to the accuracy problem. The first thing that came into question was the scope and mounts. This was checked and different scopes and mounts were used with no change seen in the accuracy. The rifle currently wears a Leupold VX-3 and steel mounts and bases, this again did not improved accuracy.

After no improvement in accuracy, the Service Center went deeper into the rifle. Checking the barrel channel, The barrel had approximately 8 points of contact from the stock’s barrel channel. They floated the barrel with still no improvement in accuracy, also the muzzle was recrowned to eliminate the crown as a possible source of the accuracy problems. This still yielded no improvement in accuracy. I brought the rifle back for further investigation, after the work yielded no improvement in accuracy. The gunsmiths then looked at the action, they determined the action was not being evenly bedded into the stock, because the action inletting was not even. They sanded down the high spots in the action inletting, so the action would sit even in the stock and the action screws would now exert even pressure instead of applying torque to the action in different directions. Finally, this attempt yielded a notable increase in accuracy, but group size only decreased to 4 inches at 100 yards.

The problem with 4 inch groupings at 100 yards, is that I cannot in good conscience, attempt to harvest an animal with this rifle given the distances normally required. Shots at 300 yards are common in the open area I hunt. The group spread this rifle produces at 300 yards, greatly increases the chances of a gut shot and ultimately a lost animal. At this point, I’ve exhausted all options trying to make this rifle shoot adequately except a replacement barrel. I do not wish to sell the rifle, as my father helped me to purchase it before deer season. Currently, my only option is to save up the approximately $600 a replacement barrel and installation will cost. As a college student in this economy it will take me quite some time to accumulate the $600 needed for the barrel and barrel installation. I’ve already spent $500 on top of what the rifle cost attempting to make it shoot adequately, to no avail. For an $800 rifle with a $600 scope and $100 rings and bases this type of performance is completely unacceptable. I don’t know where to go from here, other than to ask for a replacement rifle or barrel to be installed by my local factory service center. After a trip, back to the factory and the many subsequent trips to the my local service center, I should have a rifle that shoots, but still I don’t have a rifle that my 90 year old 30-30 can’t easily out perform at 100 yards.

My other problem firearm is an 870 Wingmaster I purchased within a few months of purchasing the above Remington 700 CDL. This gun did not function out of the box. It would feed and fire and then the action would lock up half-way open. This gun was also sent back to the factory for repair and again I got back a gun that was not 100% fixed. I took this gun to the same factory authorized service center, that I had working on the 700. Again, they worked diligently to get the gun to work, after much effort and monetary expense, they got the gun to function 100%. A $700 pump should function out of the box. I fired thousands of rounds through my 1963 Wingmaster, with zero problems. But I sold that gun to my brother and bought the Wingmaster discussed, so I had a gun that could shoot steel shot for waterfowl.

I understand that mistakes do happen in manufacturing, but for me to purchase two very different products, months apart and have them both be flawed is alarming. The second thing, I have a problem with is that the factory and customer service failed to correct the problems found with both firearms. Between my father and I, we currently own XX Remington firearms, nearly all of them purchased new from our local full line Remington dealer. After the quality control problems evident in both of my firearms and the lack of adequate customer service after the initial purchases, even my father, a devout Remington fan, is deeply shaken by my experience with the recent products I’ve purchased. He’s put several Remington purchases on hold, pending the outcome of my situation. I grew learning with Remington firearms and when I finally had the ability to buy my own, I received a substandard product. Not only did I receive a substandard product, but I did not receive adequate customer service from the factory. I really want to purchase another Remington firearm, most likely another R700 CDL or possibly a CDL Stainless fluted in .257 Weatherby Mag, in the next 12 months, but after my experience with the two guns discussed above, I don’t have the confidence that I will receive a quality product or if needed receive adequate customer service.

Regards,

XXXXX XXXX
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Old October 25, 2010, 03:53 AM   #2
hooligan1
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Sucks don't it? I'm gong to send a letter quite the reverse, to Weatherby, about my new Vanguard. Don't get me wrong I have two Rems here in my home, an older 700 and an 870 SP purchased in 1985, these guns perform like they were meant to. But at the same time, 300 mag, you are free to buy Savage and Weatherby rifles, and of course there are many more. HAVING SAID ALL THAT, I say send that letter! And I hope somebody in charge up there in Illyon N.Y. listens to you.
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Old October 25, 2010, 06:08 AM   #3
Abel
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Weatherby has still got their head in the game....the game of building rifles. Remington's ownership is in the business of making money. I like buying used rifles when possible.
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Old October 25, 2010, 07:51 AM   #4
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This letter is the reason that some of my posts talk negatively about Remington. It really is the luck of the draw on whether or not you get a good product from Remington these days...

I prefer to buy products that I know are of good quality like my Tikka and my Savage's. I've never had to use their customer service, but if I did, i'm confident that it would be better than what you describe by Remington...

Sorry you've had so many problems and I hope they get it fixed to your liking, but if not, I would say buy a Savage and don't look back...
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Old October 25, 2010, 08:20 AM   #5
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Sorry for your Remington troubles and if I were in your shoes I would demand Remington replace the rifle, in fact I probaly wouldn't have spent any of my own money trying to get it to shoot. As I have told others I must be lucky when it comes to Remingtons because I just bought a new 700 ADL .270 from Wal-Mart that I got to shot a .93 MOA 4 shot group with Hornady 130gr Interbonds and I have 700 SPS Varmint .308 that will easily shoot 1/2 MOA 5 shot group with Hornady Match 168gr A-Max.
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Last edited by Palmetto-Pride; October 25, 2010 at 09:07 AM.
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Old October 25, 2010, 08:24 AM   #6
Mike Irwin
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Question re the trigger...

Didn't you try the trigger before you walked out of the store, or did you do an online purchase and were stuck with it once it arrived?
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Old October 25, 2010, 08:52 AM   #7
.300 Weatherby Mag
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Quote:
Question re the trigger...

Didn't you try the trigger before you walked out of the store, or did you do an online purchase and were stuck with it once it arrived?
The pull seemed heavy when I picked it up. I was stuck with the rifle it as it was a special order.. No returns on special orders ... The rifle looked ok too.. But upon taking it to the range, I believe it was built on monday by someone with a serious hangover
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Old October 25, 2010, 09:11 AM   #8
Mike Irwin
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Are the new Remington triggers adjustable for pull weight?

The old ones (the hyper deadly will fire anytime the gun is touched trigger that CNBC was bitching about) were adjustable.

Despite what a lot of people say, I have never been particularly happy with Remington's triggers. Were I to shoot more, I'd probably replace them with Timney or Jewel units.
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Old October 25, 2010, 09:15 AM   #9
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I'm writing a very similar letter to Smith&Wesson. Sucks when a company has such a great rep, and they sell you a couple lemons.
Fwiw- I've personally seen the problem with 2 wingmasters. The same problem you described. They were sent back to Remington, but still aren't 100%.
Good luck, in my experience CS at most gun companies is WAY over-rated.
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Old October 25, 2010, 09:23 AM   #10
oneounceload
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Weatherby has still got their head in the game....the game of building rifles
Sorry, but Weatherby doesn't build anything - they merely contract out and then market the item.

To those who have constantly complained about US-made guns. All one has to do is search the archives here about how so many people buy based on price alone and have gone with guns made where labor is 1% the cost here. To remain competitive, US makers have had to cut costs to the bone to try and get you to buy their products, and when that doesn't work, they also go overseas, and then the howling starts about how they have gone overseas and cut quality.

You can't have it both ways to buy American compared to Chinese, Russian, Turkish, Brazilian or similar.

Either be willing to pay the money required for a gun made by US skilled labor that will cost, or buy based on price. It IS your choice.
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Old October 25, 2010, 09:45 AM   #11
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"Either be willing to pay the money required for a gun made by US skilled labor that will cost, or buy based on price. It IS your choice. "


If US gun makers have already cut costs to the bone to stay competitive, that means that they've likely gotten rid of the skilled labor that was costing so much.

And, given what many are reporting here, it's already a foregone conclusion that, while US-made gun prices remain high, quality is slipping.

The end result of that is that even more people are driven to purchase firearms made overseas. Why take the chances of paying a very high price and getting a lemon.

It's an ugly cycle that doesn't bode well for anyone, really.

Which is one of the reasons why I generally seek out used firearms from years when I know quality was good.
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Old October 25, 2010, 10:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
I'm writing a very similar letter to Smith&Wesson. Sucks when a company has such a great rep, and they sell you a couple lemons.
Fwiw- I've personally seen the problem with 2 wingmasters. The same problem you described. They were sent back to Remington, but still aren't 100%.
Good luck, in my experience CS at most gun companies is WAY over-rated.
Haha, zombieslayer!! You just have bad luck don't you?????
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Old October 25, 2010, 10:55 AM   #13
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Sorry to hear of your troubles with big green. My two 700s (a 2008 SPS SS in .308 Win and a XHR in .25-06) both shoot into < 1" at 100 yds with factory ammo. Last week I got 0.75" with Rem 168gr match in the .308 and 0.625" with the XHR with Hornady Custom 117gr SST in .25-06. Both will do better with handloads.

While my next rifle will probably be a Sako or Weatherby Mark V, I've got no complaints with these two Rems or my old 700 BDL in .30-06 bought in 1976.

FH
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Old October 25, 2010, 12:23 PM   #14
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I've had similar experiences with Remingtons which is why if I want a rifle with a budget in mind I now buy or recommend a Savage. I've never been disappointed, or had anyone I've recommended a Savage to tell me they were anything other than in love with the rifle.
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Old October 25, 2010, 01:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
I've had similar experiences with Remingtons which is why if I want a rifle with a budget in mind I now buy or recommend a Savage.
I tried to help a guy at the range with his new Savage Edge .270 he was having problems with it grouping and asked me to shoot it a couple times, he was using Remington Core Lokt ammo. The best we could do was around a 3" group. He had a Nikon Prostaff 3-9x40 on it. With better ammo I feel the gun would have done better, but the stock was very flimsy and the gun overall just had very cheap feel to it. I believe the gun new was $299.99 and it felt every bit like a $299.99 gun. The old saying is true "sometimes you get what you pay for"
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Old October 25, 2010, 01:18 PM   #16
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I had a similar experience with a $1500.00 Kimber 1911. The "target" trigger had tons of creep and you couldn't hit yer truck with it at 100 yds with a full clip unless you had a good throwing arm. I sent it back. Six weeks later I got it back and if they even looked at it I'd be surprised. That is and will be my only Kimber experience. My smitty now has it shooting under 1" groups at 25 yds and a true target trigger. But Remington; I bought a Remington 308 as a new rifle and it had a J Bolt in it. It was lousy at shooting groups and after looking around on the net it seems the J Bolt can cause accuacy issues and a lousy, unreliable trigger. I put a Callahan Speed Lok and a Rifle Basix trigger in it and it now shoots super tiny, almost one hole groups at 100 yds. It cost me another $150.00 to get it to shoot right. I wasn't happy about it but there are probably more Remingtons in the vault than anything. Mostly I prefer to buy old Remmys with nice wood stocks. I'm not a plastic stock kinda guy. So I doubt that I would be in the market for anything new. But I can understand your position. Seems we are a victim of technology. As we progress thru time we have expectations of anything we buy to be perfect. Cars, Trucks, computers, clothes, anything we buy we expect not have issues with but the reality is while actually things are better than they were years ago, there are some things that get out. I think the failure here is Remintons lack of customer service. If nothing else they should replace the guns and do a little R&D on the why the guns are having the problem so they can fix the issue at the plant, not in the field. I'd like to know exactly their response to your letter. It will probably make a difference in my future gun buying of new rifles.
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Old October 25, 2010, 01:56 PM   #17
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My post is to bring a positive light to the Remington bashing. Bash on if you wish, but I have little reason to dislike Remington.

I've owned 4 remington rifles, and I've been happy with each.

The first I bought used at a gun show: a 700 MTN rifle. Blued & walnut with hinged floor plate built in the early 80's, chambered in .280REM. Shoots MOA repeatably with my handloads and a couple different factory offerings. No bedding, but I did adjust the trigger.

Next I bought a .30-06 in SPS DM brand new in 2008. Also shot 1.2 or better with a couple different factory loads and MOA or better with handloads. No bedding or anything, but I did adjust the trigger. This trigger is a X-Mark pro, but was the first design and doesn't have the external adjustment screw.

Next I bought another Walnut and Blued MTN rifle in .280, but this one has a detach mag. I bought it brand new only a month ago, even though this model was discontinued a few years ago. It was sitting in the back of the store warehouse. At first it didn't shoot very well at all. About 1 3/4 inches at 100 yards. I adjusted the trigger, and it is before the X-Mark Pro design. I've put about 30 rounds through it, and it is starting to get better. Last time out it did 1.2 to 1.1 inches at 100 yards with handloads. If it stays there then I'm fine with that. You don't get a MTN rifle and expect Sendero accuracy! The other thing about this rifle is it didn't feed reliably with some ammo. The bolt would go over-top the 2nd round in the magazine. I decided the bottom metal needed to be deeper in the wood. So some time with a dremel and some sand paper, and it seems to feed reliably now.

I bought another only 2 weeks ago. This time a 30-06 in MTN LSS. Man, this rifle is a dream! With the mountain rifles, and their pencil barrels, you kind of expect accuracy issues, so I've been lucky in the other 2, but this one started out at 1.1 inch groups at 100 yds. I've put 20 rounds down it, and it keeps getting better. Last time out it shot a 0.6" group! I was amazed!

All the rifles work well. I did have to do some tinkering with the second .280, but nothing TOO major. People bad mouth the SPS, but I really like it!
And my MTN LSS is sooo sweet! With the leupold rings and bases and a VXII scope it weighs 7.4 lbs on my digital bathroom scale. Really easy to carry.

With Remington I understand that "you pay your money and take your chances" but so far I've been doing well on that front.

Does that mean I'll ONLY buy remington? hardly. I like Tikka, and my x-bolt is awsome too.
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Old October 25, 2010, 05:46 PM   #18
.300 Weatherby Mag
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If remington, doesn't make this right.. My next new gun will be a savage or a T/C.. The CDL in my letter will get a douglass barrel and that will be that.. But to do what i've already done and it still not have a shooter is pathetic..
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Old October 25, 2010, 06:43 PM   #19
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
If remington, doesn't make this right.. My next new gun will be a savage or a T/C.. The CDL in my letter will get a douglass barrel and that will be that.. But to do what i've already done and it still not have a shooter is pathetic..
When I started to buy a bolt gun last year, I went through countless reviews in lots of gun forums from owners and those who claimed to have shot various rifles that were of interest to me. The Savage rifles seemed to be very well liked in regard to function and accuracy, though there was some debate on the quality and necessity of the accu-triggers. Some people didn't like some of the design elements (stock cut/shape/moulding) but you find that with about any brand. One shape does not fit and please everyone.

By contrast, Remington had a lot more negative responses and aside from teh trigger issues, one that bothered me quite a bit was one talking about scope tap holes being off center. After some searching, I found the off center tapping to be more common than I would like to have risked.

I think the Savage offerings look superior than those of Remington based on online reviews.
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Old October 25, 2010, 07:04 PM   #20
.300 Weatherby Mag
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Double,

I bought a savage model 12 22-250.. If I do my part it's a 1/2 MOA gun with the 55 grain core lokt factory loads... What more can you ask for??
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Old October 25, 2010, 07:46 PM   #21
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Savage model 10FCP in .308 that gets consistent .6 @ 100 with factory 168 g Hornady's out of the box, no mods. Granted the box cost me about 900 but neither of my 700's will do that. Remington wont get another dime of my money.
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Old October 25, 2010, 09:07 PM   #22
LanceOregon
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Man, with all of your nice rifles, and them all wearing great glass like Zeiss and Leupold, I would never have thought that you were a college student.

You are extremely fortunate to be able to buy any guns at such a young age, let alone such top notch ones.

I can highly recommend Pac-Nor barrels here in Oregon for their re-barreling services. They can turn a Model 700 into an extremely accurate rifle. However, it does indeed suck big time to have to spend so much money.

It sounds like you will need to replace the trigger with something like a Timney Trigger too. And that will cost you another $150

So you really are looking at about $750 to fix the rifle. And that is a lot of money. There are quite a few new rifles that can be bought for only $750

.
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Old October 25, 2010, 09:07 PM   #23
Bird Dog
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You hear/read about people getting a sub MOA Remington at Wal-mart, then you hear about something like this. I don't know what to think anymore. Seems like a crap shoot unfortunately. For accuracy, I think Savage consistently makes really good guns right now. I know for sure, the Howa 1500/Weatherby Vanguard line is machined very well. I think Browning and T/C produce accurate guns overall. Some smart folks I know swear by CZ and Tikka. Hard to buy a Remington right now when you have all those good choices.
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Old October 25, 2010, 09:54 PM   #24
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All of today's gun MFG's have QC and Production problems.It is just what happens in today's-I want it now,and as cheap as I can get it world.

The big retailers have made it impossible for mfg's to be able to put quality workmanship in their products anymore,and still make profits.So the mfg's find ways to cut corners/cost by making guns faster and cheaper than the ones made decades ago.

I had the Savage Custom Shop build me a 110FLP 25/06 Tactical rifle late last year.It cost me about $200 more than a cataloged 110FLP because it had been discontinued a couple years back,but they had some barrels still in stock.
It was a copper mine,the barrel looked like a wash board inside with tooling marks.How do these things get over looked by QC ?
I decided not to send it back to Savage,and just deal with it myself.It took several months of hand lapping,cleaning,shooting,etc.,but I finally got it where it would shoot great,and now it will shoot just about any bullet weight.

For the time and money I have in this gun,I could have built a custom rifle myself,cheaper.
Live and Learn!

I'm not bashing Savage,I have several of their products,and this was my first to be a lemon.

I hope Remington will make good on your guns,but don't hold your breath.
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Old October 25, 2010, 10:12 PM   #25
.300 Weatherby Mag
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Quote:
All of today's gun MFG's have QC and Production problems.It is just what happens in today's-I want it now,and as cheap as I can get it world.

The big retailers have made it impossible for mfg's to be able to put quality workmanship in their products anymore,and still make profits.So the mfg's find ways to cut corners/cost by making guns faster and cheaper than the ones made decades ago.

I had the Savage Custom Shop build me a 110FLP 25/06 Tactical rifle late last year.It cost me about $200 more than a cataloged 110FLP because it had been discontinued a couple years back,but they had some barrels still in stock.
It was a copper mine,the barrel looked like a wash board inside with tooling marks.How do these things get over looked by QC ?
I decided not to send it back to Savage,and just deal with it myself.It took several months of hand lapping,cleaning,shooting,etc.,but I finally got it where it would shoot great,and now it will shoot just about any bullet weight.

For the time and money I have in this gun,I could have built a custom rifle myself,cheaper.
Live and Learn!

I'm not bashing Savage,I have several of their products,and this was my first to be a lemon.

I hope Remington will make good on your guns,but don't hold your breath.
Tx,

In January, I bought a BDL manufactured in 1979, chambered in 7mm Express Remington... If the rifle had more than a box of shells through it I would be surprised.. If my CDL was anywhere near the quality of my old BDL, we wouldn't be having this converstation..
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