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Old October 27, 2010, 07:44 AM   #176
BlueTrain
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Well, it used to be that you had to prove understanding of the constitution before you could vote, at least for some people. And likewise, I suspect that some professional pilots would like to see private aircraft banned, the same way some people would like to see privately owned firearms banned. But the comparison with flying is pretty good, actually.

Lots of people own firearms, some presumably for "sporting" purposes. More accurately, there are lots of privately owned firearms. Some people here run up the averages. But most don't carry them, probably, for one reason or another. After all, most people rarely see anything remotely resembling a good reason to go armed. They've never seen a robbery, never see lions, bears, coyotes, wolves or packs of feral dogs or cattle. I only imagine there are a lot of awfully unlucky people posting here. Be that as it may, since they don't carry, there's a whole lot of things that quickly become irrlevant. You cease having to worry about what to do with your gun when you go to work, how to react to terrorists attacking the mall, how fast your draw is, and so on, although I think the whole idea behind the original post was about actually carrying the gun. And chances are, people who had a gun but had no intention of carrying it in public (I don't mean in public view, necessarily) just might be in favor of some form of required training to be permitted to do so.
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Old October 27, 2010, 10:34 AM   #177
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MLeake ~

Excellent post. The analogy to private piloting is very well thought out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
Once again we are talking about carring a gun concealed for personal protection. Not going after criminals, not breeching a doorway, not to protect every person in the immediate area.
Oddly enough, that's pretty much what I said in my initial post. RIF.

If you are the kind of person who would act to protect your family, your friends, and other innocent people around you when their lives are threatened, then you need more training than if you are the kind of person who would not. Someone who would not intervene to save others does not need as much skill as someone who would.

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Old October 27, 2010, 11:54 AM   #178
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Sigh. I honestly don’t get it.

PAX, you are one of my heroes and I take to heart many good lessons I’ve learned from you. I worry, however, that a statement such as:

“If you are the kind of person who would act to protect your family, your friends, and other innocent people around you when their lives are threatened, then you need more training than if you are the kind of person who would not. Someone who would not intervene to save others does not need as much skill as someone who would.”

Sounds at least vaguely like only people of a certain (and, so far, largely undefined) skill level have any business trying to save their or others’ lives when the opportunity/necessity arises under less than ideal circumstances.

If I witness some ongoing situation in which I can even possibly have a chance of preventing serious injury or death to an innocent child, for example (and I use that extreme to minimize misinterpretation of, say, a domestic dispute) then I feel personally that I have a moral obligation to do whatever possible to prevent that from happening.

In such a situation I doubt that I will spend a nanosecond reviewing the level of experience and training I have before I act.

None of which is to negate my belief that good training is to be sought at every opportunity.

I’m sure I’m missing something.

Best,

Will
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Old October 27, 2010, 12:06 PM   #179
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Will,

Yes, you're missing something.

I'm not saying "Don't act."

I'm saying, "Get training if you think you would act."

There's a world of difference between those two.

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Old October 27, 2010, 12:12 PM   #180
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Quote:
If I witness some ongoing situation in which I can even possibly have a chance of preventing serious injury or death to an innocent child, for example (and I use that extreme to minimize misinterpretation of, say, a domestic dispute) then I feel personally that I have a moral obligation to do whatever possible to prevent that from happening.
Italics added.

Will wouldn't then your moral obligation to prevent serious injury extend to making sure your reasonably competent to do so?
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Old October 27, 2010, 12:33 PM   #181
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There will always be the question of whether one has the skills to actually help things or will only make matters worse. Consider the fellow at the Tacoma mall. His attempt at intervention didn't help things, and he got seriously wounded.
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Old October 27, 2010, 12:44 PM   #182
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Here is yet a different analogy and to an extent, all the same criticisms apply.

Where I live you have a legal obligation to stop and render aid in the event of an automobile accident. The requirement is a little vague and besides, I don't have the driver's manual in front of me. Yet there is no mention of any requirement to obtain any medical training what so ever in order to do this, in the event it happens and it has in fact happened to me.
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Old October 27, 2010, 12:54 PM   #183
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BlueTrain,

Yep, that's a good analogy too. Let's extend it a little.

If you know you're the kind of person who would stop and "render aid" by tossing a blanket to the victim and calling for medical aid, then you don't need any training whatsoever.

However, if you're the sort of person who would yank out a pocketknife and attempt to perform a tracheotomy right there on the side of the road, you do have a moral obligation to know enough not to slice into the victim's jugular when you do.

The problem is that a lot of people with firearms have only the skill for the former, but the determination to do the latter. This isn't a good thing.

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Old October 27, 2010, 01:26 PM   #184
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This is quickly breaching the "coiled snake" mentality. Somebody who self-identifies as a protector of society, guardian of their fellow humans who live in ignorance and are oblivious to the world around them, the self-proclaimed 'sheepdog' who has transcended being just another member of society into something far greater, morally elevated. While at the same time totes around their martial arts skills, various blunt and edged weapons, and perhaps a firearm, walking that fine line between being cautious and protecting themselves from potential harm, and from seeking out situations that they otherwise would not put themselves into, because deep down they question their own character, they want to be thrust into that situation, they want to show how prepared and strong they are, they want to be the one who steps up and rises to the occasion when others cower like sheep to slaughter.

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Old October 27, 2010, 01:28 PM   #185
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Mavracer:

I am in my 60s, I have been to medical school, graduate school, pilot training, I have taken (recently) basic life support refreshers, I have years of experience shooting (and a little training), but...

I still don't know how to "make sure".

I just do the best I can, and I think that my moral obligation extends to doing the best I can.

If my best should fail, I will, like many here would, be among my worst critics.

But I will not fail to try.

Best wishes,

Will
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Old October 27, 2010, 01:30 PM   #186
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booker_t,

Huh?

That's making an awful big jump.

My entire point: If you would act, you should learn something about how not to make things worse when you do.

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Old October 27, 2010, 01:32 PM   #187
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No, much defensive over-thinking here.

Pax had the core issue correctly put - if one is going to use an instrument of lethal force in the defense of others and/or in a crowded environment, one should have reasonable confidence in using that instrument.

Projecting a desire to act like Batman isn't the core of the discussion.

If I were to have to engage in a critical incident - I would like to have knowledge of how to make the shot in extreme circumstances. It's that simple.

I would not like to process having put a round through the head of a 18 year old innocent because I didn't even try to have some competency.
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Old October 27, 2010, 01:38 PM   #188
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Glenn,

That's it.

I'm not saying, "Do act."

I'm saying, "Get training if you think you would act."

There is a world of difference between those two.

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Old October 27, 2010, 01:45 PM   #189
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I'm tossing myself on the side of those who feel that morality mandates training, both in the shooting realm and in the legal and moral circumstances surrounding the use of deadly physical force.

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Old October 27, 2010, 01:49 PM   #190
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Quote:
morality mandates training
Morality YES, gooberment NO
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Old October 27, 2010, 02:07 PM   #191
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What Pax is saying is perfectly reasonable. When you decide to carry a gun, its your choice how you want to act. I personally wouldn't not feel qualified to engage multiple targets surrounded by innocent bystanders. The whole CCW sheepdog mentality does not apply to everyone and can get people hurt. I carry but not I'm not in the everyday, everywhere camp. I have a reasonable amount of training but not enough to where I feel comfortable being one to act in the situation I listed above.
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Old October 27, 2010, 02:19 PM   #192
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Quote:
Morality YES, gooberment NO
Funny, even here in the free state of Alaska, the government mandates minimal training for a CCW permit

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Old October 27, 2010, 02:48 PM   #193
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Quote:
If you are the kind of person who would act to protect your family, your friends, and other innocent people around you when their lives are threatened, then you need more training than if you are the kind of person who would not. Someone who would not intervene to save others does not need as much skill as someone who would.
How much training? I said a person should know how to load, unload, and shoot a target 7 yards or so in a safe manner. Thisis the qualifier here in Iowa and Nebraska too from what I have heard.

I feel this is enough for most CCW people. There are some tho that would take and pay for the highest training available and I say go for it, but, do not try to tell a person they absolutly have to have it to use a weapon in a SD situation involving the family.

Now there are some states that need no training or even shoot a target. Many feel this is the way it should be, specially those that live in them states.


I will say this, awareness is a higher priority to me in any SD situation, I would hate to shoot someone I didnt really have too or need to or thought it was someone else or.....
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Old October 27, 2010, 03:15 PM   #194
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Frankly, I think training is only going to take you so far. But that depends on how far the training goes, too, I suppose. I mean I might be the greatest target shot (which I'm not) and I might happen to have with me my K-38 (which I wouldn't) and be able to shoot that gun out of his hand (provided he held his hand still, which he probably wouldn't) (and besides I couldn't anyway) but still nothing would necessarily turn out right. Why on earth not?

For one thing, chances are no training would make me react, at least not soon enough, likely as not. And were I to whip out (I mean, "present") that five-screw .38 that I happen to have because I'd just come from the range and forgot to unload it, I might just as easily be taken for the bad guy. After all, I'm sure I look just as mean as he does. At least I try to, if I remember too. I'd probably be as worried about that as anything, being mistaken for a man with a gun. I mean a bad guy with a gun.

And what are the chances this is going to happen in front of my eyes in slow motion. I've been in a couple of car accidents (I lived) and was first on the scene at another one (he didn't) and believe me, things happen quickly. You can forget about how well your car handles in an emergency because, if life ever repeats itself, you will have about six feet to spare to react in and about two seconds to do it in, after which you have about minus two feet to react in. That may be one reason race car drivers wear helmets.

But perhaps your training covers all that. Experience is the thing, of course, and if you haven't had the experience, it is next to impossible to make someone understand by writing about it.
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Old October 27, 2010, 04:11 PM   #195
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Quote:
Posted by markj: How much training? I said a person should know how to load, unload, and shoot a target 7 yards or so in a safe manner.
"Know how to", or be able to? How quickly? Under what circumstances?
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Old October 27, 2010, 04:50 PM   #196
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Key things to being successful in protecting yourself and others:

You must have the attitude to do the task.

You must realize that by taking the step of protecting yourself and others, you must prepare yourself for that; otherwise you're doing more harm than good, when a situation arises.

You must know your limits, and constantly improve on your weaknesses. Failure is not an option, and if you have taken the intiative to protect someone else's life, but fail to do so, because you were not prepared; it'll come back to haunt you for a long time.

You must be smart; and just because you have the option to protect someone else, doesn't mean it's the best option at that given moment. Know the consequences of your actions before doing them.



As for me, I am getting more training. I am practicing on headshots with my handgun and am also in Krav Maga in the event I am unarmed. Plus learning more and more legal aspects to SD.

-Zach
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Old October 27, 2010, 04:57 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
How much training? I said a person should know how to load, unload, and shoot a target 7 yards or so in a safe manner. Thisis the qualifier here in Iowa and Nebraska too from what I have heard.

I feel this is enough for most CCW people....
Swell. But as OldMarksman said -
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
"Know how to", or be able to? How quickly? Under what circumstances?
And as I've said -
Quote:
The reality is that since you don't know what will happen, or how, you have no idea how good you're going to have to be. The better prepared you are, the more likely you'll be successful.
Again, were not talking about legal requirements for getting a permit or whether there should be such requirements or not. They are what they are in various States.

What we're talking about is a conscientious and responsible gun owner's choice to voluntarily do what he can to be safe, competent, skillful and knowledgeable in the use of his gun in self defense. How good is good enough? The point is that no one knows. But more training is better than less. Since you will never know what will happen, you can never know how good you'll have to be to prevail; but the better prepared you are, the better your chances for success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...I've been in a couple of car accidents (I lived) and was first on the scene at another one (he didn't) and believe me, things happen quickly. You can forget about how well your car handles in an emergency...
Not really. I've been in some dicey situations behind the wheel and been able to avoid disaster. Yes, things happened quickly. But how well my car handled, and some skills I've acquired made a difference. Then again, a couple of time, I wasn't able to avoid a collision. So sometimes my skills weren't fully up the the challenge presented by the situation.

Nonetheless, I would have been worse off over the years with less knowledge and skill. Since you will never know what will happen, you can never know how good you'll have to be to prevail; but the better prepared you are, the better your chances for success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booker_t
...the self-proclaimed 'sheepdog'...
I think that some folks miss the point of the "sheepdog" parable. The point, as I see it, is that to the sheep the sheepdog is pretty much indistinguishable from the wolf. So if you're inclined to be a sheepdog, don't necessarily expect everyone to appreciate you; and if you manage to mess up, don't expect a gold star for effort.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; October 27, 2010 at 06:47 PM.
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Old October 27, 2010, 07:16 PM   #198
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Quote:
What we're talking about is a conscientious and responsible gun owner's choice to voluntarily do what he can to be safe, competent, skillful and knowledgeable in the use of his gun in self defense. How good is good enough? The point is that no one knows. But more training is better than less. Since you will never know what will happen, you can never know how good you'll have to be to prevail; but the better prepared you are, the better your chances for success.
fiddletown, Thought I'd pull that out of your post as it is IMHO very well stated and accurate.
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Old October 27, 2010, 08:21 PM   #199
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FWIW:

Would I intervene in a mall/school/church shooting? Maybe. Depends.

However, the value of the life of my son, wife, and myself makes me seek out the best training I can afford. Even though my home state has no training requirement to obtain a carry permit.

If I never have to use it, it is still money and time well spent.

You are free to obtain whatever level of training your own life and family are worth to you.
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Old October 27, 2010, 09:30 PM   #200
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Quote:
I just do the best I can, and I think that my moral obligation extends to doing the best I can.
Who can ask for more than that? I think that's EXACTLY what pax has been saying.

When you say you would do the best you can of course that means you will also do the best you can when it comes to making sure you are well-trained. Otherwise it wouldn't really be the best you can, would it?
Quote:
This is quickly breaching the "coiled snake" mentality. ... because deep down they question their own character, they want to be thrust into that situation, they want to show how prepared and strong they are, they want to be the one who steps up and rises to the occasion when others cower like sheep to slaughter.
The best thing you could do for someone like this is get them to take as much training from really good trainers as possible. Maybe one of the trainers will finally break through to them and get them back on the right path. By "really good trainers" I mean someone who doesn't deal purely with the "mechanics" of shooting but who also deals with the other less mechanical but still intensely practical aspects of using deadly force.

Even if that doesn't work, at least you can hope that all that training means that if they ever do finally get "thrust into that situation" they will fall back on their training and do something worthwhile.
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