Hard cast vs hollow points

Haycreek · October 7, 2010, 01:49 PM

Gold Dot ammo is my first choice ammo for defense purposes. --- however, a good hard cast round nose flat point bullet has excellent penetration and the flat metplate on hard cast bullets does a number on wild game such as wild hogs. The hollow points that we have today are very good, but the manufactures spend a lot of money on advertising hype to convince the buying public. After you look at hard cast flat nosed bullets performance on wild hogs, I wonder why a good round nosed flat point bullet wouldn't be a good carry choice. Some pistols will feed a RNFP hard cast more reliable than a Gold Dot or others. If you have used RNFP for hunting, I would like to hear your comments, as well as everyone else.

jmortimer · October 7, 2010, 02:09 PM

I live in the "sticks" and like to shoot through my target - two or four legs. This is a great example, a .38 special standard pressure 150 grain hard cast wadcutter from Buffalo Bore at 900 fps shooting though 2 feet of ballistic gelatin from a 1 7/8" S&W J Frame. http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo%...%20Cutter.html
At the Linebaugh "Penetration Seminars" the Hard cast LBT bullets shoot though feet of bone and wet paper. No doubt the meplat will destroy much more than expected and penetrare much more than expected. I use hard cast bullets with the largest meplat possible for all purposes and as a bonus it's easier on your barrel.

Don P · October 7, 2010, 04:00 PM

Quote:

I wonder why a good round nosed flat point bullet wouldn't be a good carry choice. Some pistols will feed a RNFP hard cast more reliable than a Gold Dot or others

The only hard cast lead that I have seen in off the shelf ammo is in cowboy loads.
There has been many a pro & con discussion about carrying your own re-loads. A search will explain. Answering your question yes they are a devastating round as well as wad cutters. Tuff to find off the shelf

mavracer · October 7, 2010, 05:35 PM

I won't go into the reloads vs factory ammo. I use factory ammo for CCW.
But, I hear what your saying ,however I prefer SWC to RNFP and for soft targets I prefer swaged or softer cast bullets.
I really wish Hornady would see fit to load their SWC HP in 38 and 44 special.

jmortimer · October 7, 2010, 07:03 PM

Buffalo Bore will have you covered. Buffalo Bore is as good as it gets. Too much $$$ for plinking but you can, for sure, bet your life on their hard cast ammunition and their jacketed ammunition as well. http://www.buffalobore.com/

treg · October 7, 2010, 10:34 PM

Quote:

If you have used RNFP for hunting, I would like to hear your comments, as well as everyone else.

+1, as I have a very accurate RNFP load for my BH .44 Special.

Have shot many deer with hard cast LSWC since switching from HP's. Lots more blood loss with 2 holes gauranteed. The punched holes leak a lot more than the poked ones.

Haycreek · October 7, 2010, 11:15 PM

I reload my own, and have a wide selection of bullets. So far as the factory only for self defense, I believe if it is a justifiable shooting in a life threating situation, hand loads won't make a difference. Just don't be trigger happy. some say you will be sued if you use handloads, you will likely be sued anyway -- but no one has came up with a specific case that just because some one used handloads. And yes, I use Gold Dots, but, I occasionally may use handloads also.

HiBC · October 8, 2010, 03:13 AM

I'm thinking if I get this clone Commander like I want it most of the time it will have laser cast 200 gr .45 swc's in it.
i think they would be fine for everything from cans to falling plates to social occasions.One load,one sight setting,one reliability factor.
In a courtroom.just my way of looking at it,a cast swc might seem to carry less intent than The Ultimo Hollow Bomb serrated flesh ripper load,not that it matters much.

troy_mclure · October 8, 2010, 04:30 AM

one of the only reasons i can think of for using hp over hard cast is to limit penetration.

in a crowded urban setting too much over penetration can be bad.

brickeyee · October 8, 2010, 12:38 PM

Most shot animals attempt to flee, a few more aggressive ones might pursue you (hogs, bears, etc.).

The same applies to two logged targets.

The ones you need to stop NOW have shown an aggressive tendency already.

Eagle0711 · October 8, 2010, 02:03 PM

You guys must be mind readers, because I've been considering this very subject. This is very thought provoking. Thanks, Lyle

" If you can't shoot faster than the other guy; Shoot straighter".- Chic Gaylord

parisite · October 9, 2010, 10:04 AM

My 148gr cast lead double ended wadcutter reloads are in my J frame Smith next to my bed with 3.5gr of Bullseye powder in them.
I'm an avid target shooter and reloader and I can reload them for what good 22 ammo costs.

I feel a justifiable shooting is a justifiable shooting........no matter what ammo was in the gun.

Lawyers may have a different opinion however?

jmortimer · October 9, 2010, 10:19 AM

I'm a lawyer and I agree with you a good shoot is a good shoot. BTW I did shoot some one gallon water jugs with JHPs and a 250 grain RNFP .45 Colt for SASS shooting from Ten-X and I only had four gallons left for the "Cowboy" round. I had hoped to capture the bullet but it blew through all four easily. I would estimate it would penetrate well over two feet. The JHP from a hand gun typically will not penetrate three gallon jugs if they open up. Usually will go through two and stop in third with hand gun ammunition. Here are some good test results
Guns and Optics dated 11-12-09 with .45-70 http://gunsandoptics.blogspot.com/20...on-bullet.html
and from the site designed around one gallon jugs - Box O'Truth # 3 http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot19.htm
You can see that for the "lowly" .45 Colt "Cowboy" round 250 RNFP to blow through 4 gallon jugs is amazing. Should have set up the chronograph but I don't believe it was going more than 850 fps.

Webleymkv · October 9, 2010, 11:40 AM

JHP's are better for two-legged self defense. Deeper penetrating bullets are preferred for hunting because most game animals are quadripeds. Because of their anatomy, less penetration is required to reach the vitals of an erect biped (a human) than a quadriped of equal or greater size. Also, animals often become adrenalized much more than humans do so an exit wound to facilitate blood loss is often necessary for relatively rapid incapacitation.

Edward429451 · October 9, 2010, 12:50 PM

I gave up on fancy HP's years ago. Aside from the superior qualities of the SWC's & hardcast, ironically, they also cost a tenth or less than the jacketed bullets meaning you should be able to shoot so many of them that there is no question where they print. This reduces the chances for collateral damage from misses, which is a big concern. Don't be fooled into thinking that over-penetration is a danger. Penetration is your friend! Missing is the danger.

treg · October 9, 2010, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Edward429451
I gave up on fancy HP's years ago. Aside from the superior qualities of the SWC's & hardcast, ironically, they also cost a tenth or less than the jacketed bullets meaning you should be able to shoot so many of them that there is no question where they print. This reduces the chances for collateral damage from misses, which is a big concern. Don't be fooled into thinking that over-penetration is a danger. Penetration is your friend! Missing is the danger.

^ +1 ^
Excellent post.

publius · October 9, 2010, 07:32 PM

All my revolvers carry handloaded LSWC's whether for defense or hunting. My autos do carry HP's though. Revolvers see much more use, the autos kinda lay around neglected.

WESHOOT2 · October 10, 2010, 05:37 AM

I am not aware of any agency currently exploiting the advantages of the wide-meplat cast bullet for their duty load.

I am aware of a few using the 155g, and 124--127g .355" HP, the 125g .357" HP, the 135g, 155g, and 165g .400" HP, and the 230g .451" HP.
Successfully.....

stevelyn · October 10, 2010, 09:27 AM

Quote:

The only hard cast lead that I have seen in off the shelf ammo is in cowboy loads.

Federal makes a hardcast load called Castcore for revolvers. I'm not sure about Corbon. I think they use jacketed bullets in their loads. Other than that you are stuck with something like Buffalo Bore or Garrett unless you reload.

Dave27615 · October 11, 2010, 08:33 PM

It's an interesting question.

The reason law enforcement is successful with HP's is that's all they carry. If all they carried were Keith bullets, we'd be saying how much better Keith style bullets are (frankly, they are better).

It may not be PC to say, but if you're going to carry a handgun for defense you should ask yourself what load you'd use to hunt 200-300 lb. deer or hogs.

A Keith style bullet will do anything a HP will, and many things a HP can't.

jmortimer · October 11, 2010, 10:52 PM

Law enforcement does not want to shoot through their target hence the FBI Ballistic Gelatin Testing protocals. Let's put it this way, back in the day when Veral Smith developed Lead Bullets Technology and people like Ross Seyfried started shooting big/dangerous game with hard cast LBTs it was determined, based on experience in the field, that a hot .45 Colt with a LBT hard cast had the same killing power - effect - as the Winchester .300 Magnum and the high speed expanding bullet fans got all worked up. But, penetration testing shows that even modest .45 Colt LBT bullets will out penetrate the expanding bullet from a major magnum caliber by a wide margin. That is why Buffalo Bore and Double Tap have 200 grain flat points in their 10mm line-ups. An expanding 10mm that penetrates 18" won't do much when compared to the flat point which might penetrate three feet. I'm perfectly happy with my
11.5 mm (.45 Colt) shooting a 255 grain hard cast SWC at around 950 FPS. There is very little that round will not do and what it will do, it will do well.

WESHOOT2 · October 12, 2010, 07:21 AM

People who shoot people often do so because they were first shot at, and they wish that activity to cease.
If XYZ worked best they would use XYZ.

They use JHP because that works best.

Dave27615 · October 12, 2010, 12:21 PM

"If XYZ worked best they would use XYZ.

They use JHP because that works best."

With all due respect, I don't believe that for a second. People use what they're given to use. The people that mandate the equipment used are usually administrators. Administrators who are responding to public opinion, following the latest fad or are listening to the expert of the moment.

Did our armed forces (I was a Infantry officer for 10 years) move away from the .45 because the 9mm was better? Are they using ball ammo because it's better?

Look at all the gyrations the FBI went through on what's 'best'. Your local PD probably did the same.

If it won't work for hunting, you shouldn't carry it (IMO). Keith bullets work. For JHP, the only one I load is the XTP (also a great hunting bullet).

If you're going to carry a handgun, take it hunting; you may be surprised at what you learn.

jmortimer · October 12, 2010, 12:57 PM

Exactly

MLeake · October 12, 2010, 01:51 PM

Saw a guy demonstrate pretty conclusively that a .44magnum 240gr JHP, fired from a Marlin 94, might not do such a good job of penetrating the cartilage, muscle, and bone behind a 200-250lb hog's front shoulder. Hog ran into the brush, and the shooter ended up needing a coup de grace at the base of the skull to put it down. When the hog was butchered, the bullet was found, quite deformed, stuck in the shoulder cartilage.

OTOH, another guy in that group shot a 250lb hog broadside, from about 15yds, with a 12ga slug. Hit it about two ribs back from the front shoulder, midway from chest to spine. That hog also ran off into the brush. When found, it no longer required a coup de grace, as it had bled out. Only lesson learned there was that even killing wounds, from big bullets, may not immediately stop the target.

While people are in the same basic weight class as hogs, our skeleto-muscular structures aren't nearly as tough, and we don't have nearly as much cartilage. JHP tends to work pretty well on human tissues, and the reputable makes penetrate deep enough, reliably.

Ball ammo tends to be popular with militaries because it feeds reliably, rather than for killing efficacy or lack thereof, especially when many militaries have a variety of weapons in any given caliber.

A lot of people in the forum seem to like to quote Marshall and Sanow, although many of their findings are challenged by statisticians and ballisticians. But their findings for .45acp showed stoppage rates around 90% for 230gr JHP, but only around 65% for ball. And that was with 80's vintage JHP, not the new, bonded stuff that actually expands very reliably at lower velocities. Makes one wonder...

October 7, 2010, 01:49 PM	#1
Haycreek Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2002 Location: West Texas Posts: 151	Hard cast vs hollow points Gold Dot ammo is my first choice ammo for defense purposes. --- however, a good hard cast round nose flat point bullet has excellent penetration and the flat metplate on hard cast bullets does a number on wild game such as wild hogs. The hollow points that we have today are very good, but the manufactures spend a lot of money on advertising hype to convince the buying public. After you look at hard cast flat nosed bullets performance on wild hogs, I wonder why a good round nosed flat point bullet wouldn't be a good carry choice. Some pistols will feed a RNFP hard cast more reliable than a Gold Dot or others. If you have used RNFP for hunting, I would like to hear your comments, as well as everyone else. __________________ Safe Shooting !

October 7, 2010, 02:09 PM	#2
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,765	I live in the "sticks" and like to shoot through my target - two or four legs. This is a great example, a .38 special standard pressure 150 grain hard cast wadcutter from Buffalo Bore at 900 fps shooting though 2 feet of ballistic gelatin from a 1 7/8" S&W J Frame. http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo%...%20Cutter.html At the Linebaugh "Penetration Seminars" the Hard cast LBT bullets shoot though feet of bone and wet paper. No doubt the meplat will destroy much more than expected and penetrare much more than expected. I use hard cast bullets with the largest meplat possible for all purposes and as a bonus it's easier on your barrel. Last edited by jmortimer; October 7, 2010 at 02:15 PM.

October 7, 2010, 11:15 PM	#7
Haycreek Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2002 Location: West Texas Posts: 151	Hard cast vs hollowpoints I reload my own, and have a wide selection of bullets. So far as the factory only for self defense, I believe if it is a justifiable shooting in a life threating situation, hand loads won't make a difference. Just don't be trigger happy. some say you will be sued if you use handloads, you will likely be sued anyway -- but no one has came up with a specific case that just because some one used handloads. And yes, I use Gold Dots, but, I occasionally may use handloads also. __________________ Safe Shooting !

October 8, 2010, 04:30 AM	#9
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	one of the only reasons i can think of for using hp over hard cast is to limit penetration. in a crowded urban setting too much over penetration can be bad. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

October 9, 2010, 10:04 AM	#12
parisite Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Paris, TX Posts: 1,058	My 148gr cast lead double ended wadcutter reloads are in my J frame Smith next to my bed with 3.5gr of Bullseye powder in them. I'm an avid target shooter and reloader and I can reload them for what good 22 ammo costs. I feel a justifiable shooting is a justifiable shooting........no matter what ammo was in the gun. Lawyers may have a different opinion however? __________________ Bullseye is the skill, everything else is just games.

October 7, 2010, 07:03 PM	#5
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,765	Buffalo Bore will have you covered. Buffalo Bore is as good as it gets. Too much $$$ for plinking but you can, for sure, bet your life on their hard cast ammunition and their jacketed ammunition as well. http://www.buffalobore.com/

October 8, 2010, 03:13 AM	#8
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 3,032	I'm thinking if I get this clone Commander like I want it most of the time it will have laser cast 200 gr .45 swc's in it. i think they would be fine for everything from cans to falling plates to social occasions.One load,one sight setting,one reliability factor. In a courtroom.just my way of looking at it,a cast swc might seem to carry less intent than The Ultimo Hollow Bomb serrated flesh ripper load,not that it matters much.

October 8, 2010, 12:38 PM	#10
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,342	Most shot animals attempt to flee, a few more aggressive ones might pursue you (hogs, bears, etc.). The same applies to two logged targets. The ones you need to stop NOW have shown an aggressive tendency already.

October 8, 2010, 02:03 PM	#11
Eagle0711 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 782	You guys must be mind readers, because I've been considering this very subject. This is very thought provoking. Thanks, Lyle " If you can't shoot faster than the other guy; Shoot straighter".- Chic Gaylord

October 9, 2010, 10:19 AM	#13
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,765	I'm a lawyer and I agree with you a good shoot is a good shoot. BTW I did shoot some one gallon water jugs with JHPs and a 250 grain RNFP .45 Colt for SASS shooting from Ten-X and I only had four gallons left for the "Cowboy" round. I had hoped to capture the bullet but it blew through all four easily. I would estimate it would penetrate well over two feet. The JHP from a hand gun typically will not penetrate three gallon jugs if they open up. Usually will go through two and stop in third with hand gun ammunition. Here are some good test results Guns and Optics dated 11-12-09 with .45-70 http://gunsandoptics.blogspot.com/20...on-bullet.html and from the site designed around one gallon jugs - Box O'Truth # 3 http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot19.htm You can see that for the "lowly" .45 Colt "Cowboy" round 250 RNFP to blow through 4 gallon jugs is amazing. Should have set up the chronograph but I don't believe it was going more than 850 fps. Last edited by jmortimer; October 9, 2010 at 10:47 AM.

October 9, 2010, 11:40 AM	#14
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,406	JHP's are better for two-legged self defense. Deeper penetrating bullets are preferred for hunting because most game animals are quadripeds. Because of their anatomy, less penetration is required to reach the vitals of an erect biped (a human) than a quadriped of equal or greater size. Also, animals often become adrenalized much more than humans do so an exit wound to facilitate blood loss is often necessary for relatively rapid incapacitation. __________________ Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar

October 9, 2010, 12:50 PM	#15
Edward429451 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,457	I gave up on fancy HP's years ago. Aside from the superior qualities of the SWC's & hardcast, ironically, they also cost a tenth or less than the jacketed bullets meaning you should be able to shoot so many of them that there is no question where they print. This reduces the chances for collateral damage from misses, which is a big concern. Don't be fooled into thinking that over-penetration is a danger. Penetration is your friend! Missing is the danger. __________________ "Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark" Lazarus Long "Understand that the enemy is not the enemy in his own eyes ;this may offer you an opportunity to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate, and quickly." Lazarus Long

October 9, 2010, 07:32 PM	#17
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,349	All my revolvers carry handloaded LSWC's whether for defense or hunting. My autos do carry HP's though. Revolvers see much more use, the autos kinda lay around neglected. __________________ "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain

October 10, 2010, 05:37 AM	#18
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 12,923	for people I am not aware of any agency currently exploiting the advantages of the wide-meplat cast bullet for their duty load. I am aware of a few using the 155g, and 124--127g .355" HP, the 125g .357" HP, the 135g, 155g, and 165g .400" HP, and the 230g .451" HP. Successfully..... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

October 11, 2010, 08:33 PM	#20
Dave27615 Junior Member Join Date: October 11, 2010 Posts: 5	It's an interesting question. The reason law enforcement is successful with HP's is that's all they carry. If all they carried were Keith bullets, we'd be saying how much better Keith style bullets are (frankly, they are better). It may not be PC to say, but if you're going to carry a handgun for defense you should ask yourself what load you'd use to hunt 200-300 lb. deer or hogs. A Keith style bullet will do anything a HP will, and many things a HP can't.

October 11, 2010, 10:52 PM	#21
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,765	Law enforcement does not want to shoot through their target hence the FBI Ballistic Gelatin Testing protocals. Let's put it this way, back in the day when Veral Smith developed Lead Bullets Technology and people like Ross Seyfried started shooting big/dangerous game with hard cast LBTs it was determined, based on experience in the field, that a hot .45 Colt with a LBT hard cast had the same killing power - effect - as the Winchester .300 Magnum and the high speed expanding bullet fans got all worked up. But, penetration testing shows that even modest .45 Colt LBT bullets will out penetrate the expanding bullet from a major magnum caliber by a wide margin. That is why Buffalo Bore and Double Tap have 200 grain flat points in their 10mm line-ups. An expanding 10mm that penetrates 18" won't do much when compared to the flat point which might penetrate three feet. I'm perfectly happy with my 11.5 mm (.45 Colt) shooting a 255 grain hard cast SWC at around 950 FPS. There is very little that round will not do and what it will do, it will do well.

October 12, 2010, 07:21 AM	#22
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 12,923	fact (please consider carefully) People who shoot people often do so because they were first shot at, and they wish that activity to cease. If XYZ worked best they would use XYZ. They use JHP because that works best. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

October 12, 2010, 12:21 PM	#23
Dave27615 Junior Member Join Date: October 11, 2010 Posts: 5	"If XYZ worked best they would use XYZ. They use JHP because that works best." With all due respect, I don't believe that for a second. People use what they're given to use. The people that mandate the equipment used are usually administrators. Administrators who are responding to public opinion, following the latest fad or are listening to the expert of the moment. Did our armed forces (I was a Infantry officer for 10 years) move away from the .45 because the 9mm was better? Are they using ball ammo because it's better? Look at all the gyrations the FBI went through on what's 'best'. Your local PD probably did the same. If it won't work for hunting, you shouldn't carry it (IMO). Keith bullets work. For JHP, the only one I load is the XTP (also a great hunting bullet). If you're going to carry a handgun, take it hunting; you may be surprised at what you learn.

October 12, 2010, 12:57 PM	#24
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,765	Exactly

October 12, 2010, 01:51 PM	#25
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,656	Depends on what you're hunting Saw a guy demonstrate pretty conclusively that a .44magnum 240gr JHP, fired from a Marlin 94, might not do such a good job of penetrating the cartilage, muscle, and bone behind a 200-250lb hog's front shoulder. Hog ran into the brush, and the shooter ended up needing a coup de grace at the base of the skull to put it down. When the hog was butchered, the bullet was found, quite deformed, stuck in the shoulder cartilage. OTOH, another guy in that group shot a 250lb hog broadside, from about 15yds, with a 12ga slug. Hit it about two ribs back from the front shoulder, midway from chest to spine. That hog also ran off into the brush. When found, it no longer required a coup de grace, as it had bled out. Only lesson learned there was that even killing wounds, from big bullets, may not immediately stop the target. While people are in the same basic weight class as hogs, our skeleto-muscular structures aren't nearly as tough, and we don't have nearly as much cartilage. JHP tends to work pretty well on human tissues, and the reputable makes penetrate deep enough, reliably. Ball ammo tends to be popular with militaries because it feeds reliably, rather than for killing efficacy or lack thereof, especially when many militaries have a variety of weapons in any given caliber. A lot of people in the forum seem to like to quote Marshall and Sanow, although many of their findings are challenged by statisticians and ballisticians. But their findings for .45acp showed stoppage rates around 90% for 230gr JHP, but only around 65% for ball. And that was with 80's vintage JHP, not the new, bonded stuff that actually expands very reliably at lower velocities. Makes one wonder...