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Old October 15, 2010, 12:02 PM   #1
S_Constitutionist
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Rem Model 11

Anyone know much about these shotguns? I love the Browning A-5, but the Rem Model 11 is quite a bit more affordable. The gun will be used to shoot trap and perhaps upland birds - primarily by my wife.


Are they soft shooters?
How reliable are they? Prone to any problems?
How available are parts?

What would be a good price for a used 28", 80-90% bluing, fixed full or mod choke?

I was hoping to pick one up at a gun show this weekend.
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Old October 15, 2010, 01:10 PM   #2
natman
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They are good solid guns, but be aware that Remington made the last Model 11s in 1947. So even the newest is going to be at least 63 years old. Parts can be hard to find.
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Old October 15, 2010, 02:17 PM   #3
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Her's a link to the model 11's / Auto 5's ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Auto-5

Model 11's and Auto 5's - in my opinion - you asked, are they:
1. Soft shooting -- not compared to todays technology in gas guns...
2. Reliable ---no, they tend to be finnicky / need to be kept lubed and clean / the action is slow to cycle
3. There are a lot of them around / so scavenging parts won't be that big a deal probably
4. Value --- probably $ 150 - $ 300 .../ personally, I wouldn't pay over
$ 100 for one with a fixed choke ( its not versatile gun in my view).

In general, I think its a poor choice compared to so many options you have today. For its time / it was a solid gun (it was the semi-auto of my youth !!) - but things have really changed on semi-auto shotguns - with the newer guns shooting quicker, cycling a wider variety of shells, shooting cleaner, etc. Are they terrible guns, No --- but you'll have to fuss with them / tinker with them ....

In my opinion - for $ 100 / maybe $ 150 its a gun you, or your wife, can shoot a little bit ....if it fits either one of you .... / they don't fit me very well ...and I was never that big a fan of the Auto 5's ....
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Old October 19, 2010, 09:06 PM   #4
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Sorry to get in so late on this. You've probably already made your decision but if not, I'd say about $200 for a very good condition Remington Model 11 AUTOLOADER that was designed by John Moses Browning would give you an excellent shotgun at a good price. I bought one like that about a year back at a gun show for $200. Wouldn't sell it or trade it for the world.

Big Jim T, who responded earlier, isn't a big fan of inertia guns that kick, and I have to admit a model 11 does kick more than a gas-operated gun, and I'd certainly only use light loads if my wife was using it (and I'd make certain that my recoil brake was set for using light loads). But I think Big Jim probably has money to burn and I don't, and for the money, I can overlook a little recoil. In my opinion, if it's recoil brake is set correctly, a Model 11's recoil is really not that bad anyway if you don't shoot it a lot. No more than I use a shotgun, I sure wouldn't purchase a lot more expensive gun just for a little less recoil. I've just never perceived the additional value in those $3,000 shotguns that basically do the same job as my $200 gun.

I also disagree with Jim's characterization of Model 11's as finiky and slow to cycle. He obviously believes that, but I had a Model 11 Sportsman model for years and it was anything but finiky, and it would cycle shells faster than I could fire them. The Model 11 I bought last year to replace it (I gave my Sportsman to my son) doesn't seem to be finiky either, and it too cycles shells faster than I can fire them. You do have to set the recoil brake aka friction rings correctly for the type of loads you are shooting.

Actually, I consider these guns to be the armored tanks of the shotgun world. They made their reputation as waterfowl guns and that ought to tell you something about their dependability, but if you have an IC barrel or something like that it ought to be a fine gun for upland birds and such. Maybe a little heavy for your wife, though.

I've found I can clean mine once or twice a year and forget it. I've never had a problem with either of mine, and 99% of the reports I've seen about these guns say they are generally trouble-free if you just clean them periodically and keep the friction rings adjusted correctly for the loads you are shooting.

I also disagree with Big Jims opinion that Remington Model 11 parts are hard to find. A million of these guns were sold in the US over the years, so parts are out there. Go on line and look up Bobs Gun Shop in Port Royal Arkansas. They advertise that they've got most any part you'd ever need.

There was a time in my younger days when my 12 guage Model 11 Sportsman was my only firearm. I used it for occasional hunting, and for HD too. I had a job where I traveled a lot and always took it with me in the trunk of my car. With my semi-automatic shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot by my bedside, I slept soundly in some pretty dicy South Florida motels back in those days. I have to say that I rarely use my Model 11 these days, and I freely admit that if I were a skeet or trap shooter, and fired a hundred or more shells a day some days, I'd buy another gun. The recoil of a Model 11 would indeed be an issue in that kind of shooting. It has a cumulative effect and will bruise your shoulder after a while if you keep firing. (I find the Model 11's recoil very similar to an M-1 Garand rifle in that regard.) But if you are like me, and just go hunting a few times a year and never have a reason to fire more than a few shots a day, a $200 12 guage Remington Model 11 autoloader is hard to beat - and something else: one of the things I like best about mine is that I've never taken it shooting at a range that somebody didn't come up and admire the gun. It's sort of like showing up at a car lot with a restored 1938 Ford coupe.

Last edited by DG45; October 19, 2010 at 09:31 PM.
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Old October 20, 2010, 10:58 AM   #5
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Actually, I am a fan of today's inertia guns - like the Benelli Super Sport, with the comfort tech recoil supression system in them.

I fractured my shoulder blade in a cycling accident a few years ago / not bad enough for surgery - but tore my bicep and my rotator cuff pretty badly too. I bought the Benelli Super Sport / to shoot on the local sporting clays circuit - because it hurt my arm and shoulder too much to mount an 8 1/2 lb Over Under all day on the course ... To me, the Benelli Super Sport worked very well / nice light gun / easy recoil using 12ga 1 oz loads ...and it kept me shooting until I decided to have the shoulder re-built anyway ...

But DG45 is right / I'm not a big fan of the older Auto 5 's or the Rem model 11's .....but for under $ 200 / I think I said it might be a decent option.

I'm glad DG45 has had good luck with his Auto 5's / but there was a waterfowler at my club yesterday - and his Auto 5 would only cycle 2 shells ( maybe once out of every 10 trys ) ....and that's more typical for what I see on guns that are not kept meticulously clean and lubed. They are inexpensive ...but not trouble free in my experience.
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Old October 20, 2010, 12:35 PM   #6
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Model 11 are hard kicking guns, no doubt. I have owned two. The first was a riot gun, Cleveland Police surplus. It was 100% reliable, but I pretty much only shot 00 Buck and slug through it.
My current Model 11 was bought at a gun show for $175. It has a 20" barrel which was shortened from a sporting length tube. I have only put about 100rds through it, again, mainly 00 Buck. It has also proven 100% reliable.
I have never done anything out of the ordinary as far as maintenance. Many problems with these guns are due to worn friction rings, or improper setting of the friction ring for the load being used.
As far as the Model 11 being "slow to cycle"....My friend and I were shooting my first riot Model 11 once, when he decided to see how fast he could fire a full magazine. He shouldered it and pulled the trigger as fast as he could, using 00 Buck...the old model 11 sounded like a machine gun, and I could see all 5 empties in the air streaming out of the ejection port....
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Old October 20, 2010, 01:06 PM   #7
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I'm not sure that you're comparing apples-to-apples Big Jim when you bring A-5's into a discussion of Model 11's as if they were identical twins to a Model 11. The guns are indeed very similar in that they were built from the same patent, but they are not clones of one another. My understanding is that most of the mechanical parts between these guns are not interchangable, though some are. (I could be wrong about this. I've never owned an A-5. But I think I've heard that.)

My guess is that trying to force parts from a Remington Model 11 to fit an FN A-5 might make an A-5 "finiky" though.

Actually, I think that people sometimes forget that while Model 11's and A-5's were not really "custom made" guns, both were high quality factory hand-fitted guns. Any "finiky-ness" in either of them can probably be traced to a lack of upkeep, or to to a 60 to 100 year old spring thats weakened, or to a 60 to 100 year old part that needs replacement, or to a replacement part that somebody installed "as is" into an otherwise all hand-fitted gun.
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Old October 20, 2010, 01:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Are they soft shooters?
How reliable are they? Prone to any problems?
How available are parts?
The Remington Model 11 is essentially the same as the Browning A-5 shotgun (with a few minor differences). So without getting into disagreeing or agreeing with other posts, my 30 years of experience with A5s says this:

No, they are not soft shooters, neither are they particularly hard kickers. The recoil operated system does slow down recoil so it seems like it takes an eternity for the gun to quit recoiling, but since the impulse is spread over about 1/8 of a second it really does not hurt even in a T shirt.

While they do not cycle as fast as some of the newer shotguns, they do cycle much faster than most shooters. I have fired my A5 as fast as I can pull the trigger, and it takes about 1 second to completely empty all 5 rounds. If you can shoot faster, maybe you will reach a point where that is too slow, I don't know.

The Auto-5/A-5/Browning's Patent Automatic 5-shot Shotgun design is absolutely dead reliable under any conditions when properly maintained. Once you figure out the "mystery of the rings" you will have a shotgun that will positively cycle everything from popgun trap loads to heavy 2-3/4" magnum field loads. Once properly adjusted, they will cycle no matter what as long as the shell goes bang. That said, it all depends on the quality of maintenance this particular gun has had over its lifetime.

Having said that, I will say this: Remington Model 11s have not been made for 60+ years, so parts are hard to find. If you discover a problem after you buy it, you will have a $200 closet ornament. Unless you have a reason for specifically wanting a Rem Model 11, I would pass on the gun. If you want a gun of that design, A-5s are available for just a little bit more money, and parts are much more available since they were manufactured until 1999 (do not buy an A5 made between 1940 and 1953, they are just rebranded Rem Model 11s).

If you are just looking for a shotgun to get your wife into shooting, buy a Remington Model 1100. Gas-operated means soft recoil, and fewer parts means easier to maintain and service, and all parts are available.
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Old October 20, 2010, 01:41 PM   #9
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"The gun will be used to shoot trap and perhaps upland birds - primarily by my wife."
IMHO, if you want a Browning design to add to your collection, then go for an old Browning Auto-5 or Remington Model 11. If you want to make your wife happy, consider a modern gas gun like a Beretta 390/391, or an older design Remington 1100/11-87. An old hump back Browning desing might be aimed directed at divorce court.
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Old October 20, 2010, 02:19 PM   #10
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the divorce court jokes aside ....about buying guns for your wife ...

you might be right DG45 .... I didn't mean to imply the Rem mod 11's and Auto 5's are identical internally ... I don't really know if they are or not.

Its my opinion, that a lot of issues with semi-autos / models from today and yesteryear ....are often fixed by a little maintenance. The two duck hunters I shot some skeet with yesterday ...the guy with the auto 5 said he had not cleaned it in well over a year ( so no wonder it didn't cycle ) / the other guy had a Benelli - and he said he's never cleaned it ...and he's had it for 4 or 5 years ... it failed to cycle a couple of times ...and he thought that was just normal for a semi-auto... :barf:

They were very cordial / easy going guys -- ...but a little TLC wouldn't hurt either gun.

I clean a gun thoroughly every time I shoot it ...so I don't understand the concept of shooting a dirty gun / let alone shooting or putting up with one that won't cycle 2 shells ...even 1% of the time ..../but its a free country - and they can do whatever they want ....
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Old October 20, 2010, 03:16 PM   #11
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Again, someone has said parts are hard to find for Remington Model 11's. Not really. At least not really if you are ok with making do with used parts. I encourage anyone who thinks they are hard to find to go on-line and search Bob's Gun Shop in Port Royal, Arkansas. They seem to have just about any Model 11 part you'd ever likely need. They even carry several different variations of stocks and forearms, including some new aftermarket ones. (And in my opinion, of all the replacement parts you're ever likely to need these two lead the list.) Model 11's have cracked many a gunstock and forearm due to an owners failure to adjust his guns recoil brake (friction rings) for the loads he was shooting.

Also, I don't think I've ever been to a gun show where I didn't see a Model 11 for sale - or at least it's Model 11 Sportsman little brother - so what's the worst that could happen? If you really couldn't find a part anywhere else you could always buy another $150 Model 11 and use it as a parts gun. Not the ideal situation maybe, but compared to the cost of a new shotgun, not a bad option.
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Old October 20, 2010, 03:43 PM   #12
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If you're going to shoot some of these old guns ....picking up some spare parts / or a parts gun at a gun show is probably smart.

I see a lot more Auto 5's at my local shows / than Rem mod 11's ...but I pass by that stuff pretty quickly too with only a glance ....there might be tubs of parts laying there ...for the Mod 11's ...

If the OP is a new shooter / and just looking for something inexpenive to shoot / he needs to educate himself on what to look for on these guns and how to evaluate their condition. Its one thing for some of us "old dogs" to debate this issue ...having been around these guns for 40 or 50 yrs ...but I have to wonder at what point does a new shooter just pass on these older guns ...and invest instead in a good practical pump gun ( like a Browning BPS or something ) that will shoot almost forever / at $ 575 new ... / or a few more bucks into one of the newer generation semi-autos.

I talked to a young guy the other day - that said he found some Browning Gold semi-autos, 12 ga, which have not been made for awhile (although they're still made in 10ga ) ...he claimed, still new in the box, in a shop someplace in Idaho ...for around $ 500. So there are still some deals out there ....and on good used guns too ( like the Rem 1100's or the Rem 11-87's ) ...that might be better long term buys than these Rem mod 11's or the Auto 5's ..
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Old October 20, 2010, 07:21 PM   #13
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Remington model 11

I am looking at my 1939 Stoeger,s Cat Mod 11A cross bolt safty, flat heel stock standard grade $49.95. Browning A5 round knob stock safty in front of trigger standard grade 1 $49.75 Can you believe it. Savage made a version of the A5 too. I would,nt part with my 1949 BROWNING.A5
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Old October 20, 2010, 08:59 PM   #14
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My buddy has one of the Savage versions of the A-5. Interesting if you're a Savage fan. It has an smooth-back alloy receiver and works fine, but I wouldn't ask my wife to hunt with it -- she's happier with a full length rib.
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Old October 21, 2010, 01:22 AM   #15
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I just re-read Scorch's post on this thread and learned something. He said A-5's built between 1940 and 1953 are just rebranded Remington Model 11's. I guess this refers to the fact that FN was unable to manufacture the A-5 in Belgium during WWII. (Why? Think Battle of the Bulge. That was in Belgium.) I think Remington manufactured a gun called the A-5 for Fabrique Nationale in a plant in St. Louis during the war (Remington Model 11's were manufactured in Ilion, New York), but I had no idea that the product that FN put out AFTER the war until 1953 was really just a rebranded Remington Model 11.

If that's so, then I stand corrected on my statement that the parts between these guns are not identical. Perhaps they were identical on A-5's that were manufactured between 1940 and 1953.
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Old October 21, 2010, 07:03 AM   #16
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Rem model11

Scorch; You say that the 1940 to 1953 A5s are not A5s but RESTAMPED Remington model 11s .So anybody who has a A5 including me from 1940 to 1953 really has a Remington Model 11. Is that what your saying? A lot of people will love to hear that. Is there any kind of written proof of this or is this only your opinion? I would like to hear more about this.
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Old October 21, 2010, 07:49 AM   #17
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Check on the Browning web site, they have a listing of the serial numbers there. They mention the war years but from 1947 thru 1951 there is no mfg mentioned. The year 1954 show's that FN took over production.

www.shotgunworld.com has a whole forum just for Browning shotguns, and much information on the A5 autoloader.

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Old October 21, 2010, 08:17 AM   #18
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Remington model 11

Over my serial no on the bottom of the receiver is FN , does that mean anything?
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Old October 21, 2010, 09:26 AM   #19
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I usually keep a Model 11 around and have had several. I have not had a problem getting a couple of parts from Gunparts Corp. I bought a new stock from Boyds, but I think they have only one variation of the three.

They are relatively heavy and may not be the best choice for some women, or men for that matter. They kick more than a gas operated auto, but no more than a double or over under.
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Old October 21, 2010, 10:10 AM   #20
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grousehunter,
Yes, Browning had their Auto-5s made by Remington, instead of FN, from WWII until the early 1950s. No, your war time Browning is not identical to the Remington Model 11: The Remington-produced Browning A-5s had magazine cutoffs - Remington M-11s didn't. Bear in mind that Remington changed over to their new auto, the Model 11-48, in 1948. Scorch's use of the term "rebranded" may be an over statement; but, it seems reasonable to assume that parts initially intended for Remington guns found their way to Brownings after 1947.

Your FN mark, without a Made in Belgium, might indicate that the specific part was made by FN. Does anyone have any info that indicates Browning had FN parts shipped to Remington with the WWII production change? Or, did the FN distinguish Remington receivers made to Browning's FN specs, or... ?
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Old October 21, 2010, 11:39 AM   #21
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Remington model 11

My gun like I said, has FN over the se# My barrel says right in the centre, FABRIQUE NATIONALE D,ARMES DE GUERRE HERSTAL-BELGIQUE On the side it says ** Acier Special-C,12 Cart 2 3/4 and a bunch of numbers and letters ahead of it, PV and some symbles are everywhere.

The forearm,barrel,bolt,backstock,receiver, even some screw heads, all have the same ser# no and the butt blate says Automatic Browning with FN in the centre,smooth on the back side, Serial no 2846xx
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Old October 21, 2010, 01:29 PM   #22
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You know, I never thought about it before I read Scorch's post on this thread, but if Remington manufactured A-5's for Fabrique Nationale in the US for 12 or 13 years, do you believe they completely retooled a factory so they could manufacture two different guns based on exactly the same patent? -And that they did this during wartime, when labor and materials were in short supply? Anybody that believes they did, give me a dollar. They may have had to "tool up" to make a magazine cutoff, and they may have had to retool to manufacture a double claw extractor mechanism, but I seriously doubt if they tooled-up or retooled to make anything else.

My guess is that they started out with a supply of FN A-5 parts, not all of which were identical to Model 11 parts, but 13 years worth?? Not likely. I'll bet you that as soon as they ran out of FN parts they just started taking parts made in New York for Model 11 s, stamping them FN, and shipping them to St. Louis where they were assembled as Model 11 clones except for the addition of a mag cutoff and a double claw extractor; then finished them as A-5s.

This is all just pure speculation on my part of course, but I think its a reasonable speculation to make, and if that's really what they did, then I can see why Big Jim P may think of A-5's as "finiky" guns. I'll bet that sometime in, let's say the 1960's, Big Jim took his Remington-made A-5 (that was manufactured in let's say 1947) in for a minor repair, and somebody put a real Belgian A-5 part in it. Or maybe it was a pre-war A-5 that was manufactured in Belgium that he took in for repair, and somebody put a part in it that was actually manufactured to Remington Model 11 specs in the US sometime between 1940 and 1953.

My guess is that something like that could make a gun "finiky". And now that I think about it, it seems like its always an A-5 that somebody mentions they've had these problems with; rarely do you hear that about a bona fide Remington Model 11, which were mass produced in this country with about a million of them sold here. (I think there were far fewer A-5's sold in the US than Model 11's , but I could be wrong.)
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Old October 21, 2010, 02:24 PM   #23
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Hey now .....I'm not as old as Zippy ...give me a break man ....I'm barely into my 60's ( I'm still just a pup ..) ....

You guys might be right about this stuff ...but I just see a lot of Auto 5's at the gun clubs this time of year ( when the hunters come out to get some time in with their guns ) that have all kinds of cycling issues...or they won't shoot light target loads ( 1150 fps ) ...

I think in fairness, my impression of them being finnicky - is probably more related to general maintenance (cleaning and lubing) than parts issues ...or at least some of both ....

I do a little gunsmithing on the side / mostly for friends or friends of my sons - teaching them about their guns - how to clean them, etc ... The last one I did was for a friend - that had a broken part in his trigger group on a "well used" Beretta 390 semi-auto ....so we ordered the parts he said he needed from Brownells and he came over to my shop ...despite the fact that he says he cleans his gun ( he had only had the barrel off this thing about 3 times in 6 or 7 years .../ had never taken the trigger group out of the gun / had no idea how to drive the pin out of his receiver to remove the trigger group ... ). I thought he had taken it apart or to a gunsmith to find out the parts he needed ...but he just googled the symptoms online - and someone told him it was a spring in his trigger group - so that was what he ordered.

The bolt and the gas valve in this gun was so full of crud ...he took the parts home ( soaked them in kerosene for a couple of days ) before he brought them back to my shop so we could put the gun together again ....

Now this was a year ago ....and he shoots about 200 shells a month ...and he has not even taken the barrel off that gun since ( let alone unscrew the choke or anything else ). Despite his neglect - the Beretta 390 is pretty forgiving ...but if he had an Auto 5 ...or a Rem model 11 .... he'd have to have a "dead blow" hammer in his pocket -- to get it to chamber a round .... --- it would be such a mess ...
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Old October 21, 2010, 03:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJimP
I think in fairness, my impression of them being finnicky - is probably more related to general maintenance (cleaning and lubing) than parts issues ...or at least some of both ….
And, like the problem with many Remington 1100 and 11-87 shooters: Having the rings set incorrectly. We set my buddy's Savage "Browning" to light and it happily digested 1-oz target loads.
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Old October 21, 2010, 03:56 PM   #25
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Rem mod 11

I loaded up a 7/8oz 1350fps, set A5 on lite, fired, ejected, bolt locked back, so I fiquared they would work, never put none in mag, may not work then.
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