The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 14, 2010, 09:02 PM   #1
Murdock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2008
Location: Down East Maine
Posts: 431
Picking up a magazine on a hot range.

Educate me. Why do some people make an issue of a shooter squatting to pick up a spent magazine at his feet when shooting on line in a class? Especially if the class is being run as a hot range?

If the shooter's weapon is holstered, or the muzzle is controlled and pointed downrange, and he or she is not going forward of the line, what's the concern?
__________________
The United States Marine Corps: Providing the enemies of America the opportunity to die for their countries since 1775. Semper fi.
Murdock is offline  
Old October 14, 2010, 09:10 PM   #2
Osageshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 2009
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 179
There is at your feet. Then there is just a little ahead of your feet. Then there is just a little bit more ahead of your feet. Then there is three feet ahead of your feet. It is a high reliability concept. If you don't allow it at all, you won't have the guy walking out and picking up the magazine that hit his knee on the way down and bounce out in front of the line.
Osageshooter is offline  
Old October 14, 2010, 09:29 PM   #3
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,693
If the drill is running, your gun may be holstered, but the guys on your left and the guys on your right have their guns out and are firing them. During a drill we want no extraneous movement on the line, for the reasons Osageshooter mentioned, and because unexpected things can happen, like a loss of balance. It's better to be safe in class.

They'll be a time after the drill is over and everyone has holstered when everyone can pick up magazines. Yours will still be there. It won't be going any place.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 08:41 AM   #4
demigod
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,129
No instructor I've trained under has ever made this an issue.
demigod is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 09:34 AM   #5
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by demigod
No instructor I've trained under has ever made this an issue.
Funny, every instructor I've ever trained with has not wanted anyone to pick up magazines while on line during the time the drill is running. Magazines would get picked up only after the drill finished and everyone was holstered.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 09:40 AM   #6
thesheepdog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2010
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 1,991
My opinion:

Mark your mags so you can identify them and collect them after the drill.

Don't stoop down to pick up mags until the range is no longer hot.
__________________
Krav Maga/Judo
Qualified Rifleman/Marksmanship Instructor/Lic. Medic
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" Romans 8:1
thesheepdog is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 09:51 AM   #7
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,928
Quote:
Educate me. Why do some people make an issue of a shooter squatting to pick up a spent magazine at his feet when shooting on line in a class? Especially if the class is being run as a hot range?
It's a lot easier to demo in person than to type out, but consider this: In a class, you're often standing only a couple of feet away from the guys on either side of you. And those guys might be shooting, holding their guns at low ready, reloading, or some variant of any of the above. When you bend down to pick up your magazine, if either of the guys on either side of you has his firearm pointed anywhere but directly on target, there's a very high chance that you'll place your noggin right in front of one of those close muzzles, either on your way down or on your way back up, without even realizing you've done so.

And that's quite apart from the fact that a surprising number of people (especially including old guys who've "been shooting longer than you've been alive") don't seem to have any inbuilt muzzle awareness, and swing their !$#%!#$ muzzles around to point at the guys next to them, their own kneecaps, AND the instructor behind them as they frantically dive for the magazine as if it might vanish into a hitherto-unnoticed black hole if they don't grab it before it strikes the ground.

Gravity works, most of the time, and it can be trusted to hold your magazine in place right where it landed until the instructor calls the line safe.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 10:52 AM   #8
Archer-1911
Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2010
Posts: 27
Let me answer that by asking you this why in the hell do you need to pick your magazine up right away? The instructor will give the entire class a period of time to collect/load magazines so why not just wait?
Archer-1911 is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 11:38 AM   #9
Tom-C
Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2008
Posts: 45
Demigod,

I agree with Fiddletown and Osageshooter. Every Instructor I have worked with insists on no one retriving magazines until the range is safe and all the firearms are holstered.
Tom-C is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 12:05 PM   #10
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,306
If that hot range involved a defensive course, there's another reason not to pick up a mag.

Remember the Newhall Incident? Trooper James Pence, only 2 years out of the academy, attempted to pocket his revolver's empty brass during a reload attempt.

It seems that, during his time at the academy, CHP didn't want empty brass cluttering up their nice manicured lawn at the range, and had rookies pocket their empties. It got him killed at Newhall.

Habits folks... habits.

Semi autos and magazines, slightly different, but the same principle.

We were specifically discouraged from picking up mags primarily for that reason.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 12:52 PM   #11
R1145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 343
+1 to Capt. Charlie

It's a training thing. Train as you fight.
R1145 is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 01:09 PM   #12
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,745
Capt. Charlie,

Thanks for the added response. It makes a lot of sense.

Geetarman
geetarman is offline  
Old October 15, 2010, 06:52 PM   #13
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,319
Let's say you have a nicely marked firing line. Now, person A knows not to cross the line on a hot range. He picks up his mag, which just behind the line. Person B does much the same, but doesn't pay quite as much attention to where the firing line is...now we have range violations.
raimius is offline  
Old October 18, 2010, 08:57 AM   #14
demigod
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,129
Quote:
Demigod,

I agree with Fiddletown and Osageshooter. Every Instructor I have worked with insists on no one retriving magazines until the range is safe and all the firearms are holstered.
Gotcha! I misunderstood the question a little. I didn't get the part about the drill still running... i.e. bullets still flying. We always get permission to police up mags, etc. at the end of the drill.
demigod is offline  
Old October 19, 2010, 10:00 AM   #15
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
Good comments by all.

The concern I would have mostly is what is the person doing with the muzzle while he/she is leaning/squatting/kneeling to pick up the mag, even if it is right at their feet. It's a moment when the mind is concerned with something other than muzzle discipline, and in such close quarters, any slip could be fatal.

Also, the train as you fight concept applies 100%. Drop your empties and get them out of the way. If you drop a mag with some rounds left, it's gone, let it go. Get the next mag in the gun and make 'em count. If you're doing a tactical reload and you drop the partial, let it go and move on, it's gone. Stay in the moment and worry about After-Action Review when the time is right.

For marking mags: Get yourself a good oil-based paint marker in your favorite color (I like green). Hobby stores like AC Moore or Michael's carry them, a couple bucks each and they last quite a while. Put a dot or your first initial on there somewhere and there will be no confusion about which ones are your's.
booker_t is offline  
Old October 19, 2010, 10:12 AM   #16
Rifleman 173
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 588
If you train to waste extra moves, like picking up a magazine while shooting is on-going, it means that you are not concentrating on what is important like watching the enemy. A magazine should be secondary to your life and your life depends on you watching what is going on in front of you. Drop the magazine, move on and watch what is going on around you is important in that order. If you aren't shooting, you should be watching and moving or reloading while behind cover.

So why do we push watching the range over magazine recovery? Because (A.) is becomes a tactical strength for you to go straight through the course of fire and (B.) because it can be a safety issue that saves your life. Suppose the shooter suddenly slumps over with a heart attack or takes a richocet in the head. If you are alert and concentrating on the gunfire then when the shooter drops over you might be able to keep him from shooting another person by accident or even you. So there are basically two cautious reasons to wait and pick up magazines at the end of a course of fire.
Rifleman 173 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09181 seconds with 7 queries