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Old October 25, 2010, 01:12 PM   #126
WANT A LCR 22LR
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"" jfruser "" LEOs are not anything special relative to other citizens(1). Both LEOs and non-LEO/non-military folks are civilians. I have had at least two jobs with higher OTJ injury & death rates and where quick decision-making under threat of death and/or injury was common, so that doesn't impress me much as an excuse.
There is a difference between a somewhat predictable dangerous job and a unexpected unpredictable criminal activity unfolding in real time at a unfamiliar location.

With a dangerous job like oil drilling , high steel, mining or tower work, normal events follow a pretty well defined script. When something occurs that needs quick correct action, the tools / knowledge / extra skilled people are readily at hand.

Most importantly, the worker in a dangerous job knows they have to be on their game from the time they clock in and have time to ramp things up before they arrive. If any of these workers were randomly dumped in to their job specialty at a unfamiliar location with zero skilled people to help, the decisions / actions they make / take won't be as elegant as the ones they make at their more familiar workplace.

If the off duty cop had run away with family in tow, how do you think that would have played out in the media / public eye? Would it not empower criminals to be more bold if a uniform isn't present?

Lastly, I'm still not convinced the story was written by the actual cop on the scene, it just has the feel of a Internet "story". ( I'm not disputing the basic facts of the actual event)
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Old October 25, 2010, 10:55 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by powderman

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Sadly, our gov't has chosen to treat them differently vis a vis the law and consequences for actions while performing their duty.
And that's what it's all about, isn't it?
Actually, no. It is about the incident recounted in the OP and any possible lessons to be learned from it.

Part of that process must take into account the legal caste system(1) that includes sovereign immunity for some, limited sovereign immunity for others, and nothing of the sort for most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powderman
And for those who say that they have a right to criticize this man for his actions--all I can say is this--only if you've been there.
Repeating it makes it no more valid than the first time. Call it criticism, critique, analysis, whatever, it amounts to roughly the same thing. It is part of why this sub-forum exists. Unless the forum owner declares LEO-involved incidents as off-limits WRT analysis, it is legitimate. Some analysis will be good and germane, Some not so much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powderman
In days past, cops might have had a 'bye' considering the severity of the incident, their department, etc. Nowadays this is NOT the case.

Unless you have the misfortune of being in a secluded area where the ENTIRE department is corrupt (and yes, I acknowledge that this does had has happen) police officers are held to a MUCH HIGHER STANDARD concerning the use of deadly force.
If you are referring to employer administrative action for violating employer policy, yes, any LEO is much more likely to face administrative disciplinary action by their employer in the wake of a deadly force incident.

I liken this to conditions of employment...because they are conditions of employment, not law. Follow employer policies or face discipline up to and including termination. As the LEO is free to quit at any time and not bound by law to continue employment by that particular level of government (as are military personnel) I am sympathetic. But not overly so. Non-LEOs who don't like their employers' policy vis a vis CCW or any other topic are free to find other employment, too.

If you are referring to legal standards for use of force, that is a state-by-state issue, but it is not all that different in most. For instance, a neighboring state's LEOs have the same legal standard for use of deadly force as any citizen, with the additional authority to arrest for misdemeanors.

The real difference lies in what I posted above WRT sovereign immunity and practices not codified, but exercised nonetheless. One significant practice being prosecutorial discretion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powderman
When we assume our duties as police officers, we are required to SWEAR, to take an oath and PROMISE, upon our honor, to serve and protect, to uphold the law, and to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

This oath is not taken lightly.
LEOs are not the only one to take such oaths.

Of course, this has very little to do with analysis of the incident in the OP, as I cannot recall anyone suggesting the officer violated his oath or was dishonorable in any fashion.

---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by WANT A LCR 22LR
There is a difference between a somewhat predictable dangerous job and a unexpected unpredictable criminal activity unfolding in real time at a unfamiliar location.

With a dangerous job like oil drilling , high steel, mining or tower work, normal events follow a pretty well defined script. When something occurs that needs quick correct action, the tools / knowledge / extra skilled people are readily at hand.
True, past occupations of mine (Infantry & such, tree felling, construction, & others) are not identical to LEO work.

There were plenty of times it was just me or me and another guy. No script, nobody at hand to turn a pear-shaped situation into something happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WANT A LCR 22LR
Most importantly, the worker in a dangerous job knows they have to be on their game from the time they clock in and have time to ramp things up before they arrive. If any of these workers were randomly dumped in to their job specialty at a unfamiliar location with zero skilled people to help, the decisions / actions they make / take won't be as elegant as the ones they make at their more familiar workplace.
Some jobs, you're always on the job, and can be called to go someplace on 3 hours notice. Or 30 minutes notice, in the case when I took my pay from Uncle Sam.

I will concedeyour basic point is sound: there is no occupation perfectly comparable to law enforcement. There are, however, many other occupations as dangerous and that have similar stress levels.





(1) It is somewhat off topic, but my opinion WRT sovereign immunity, limited or otherwise, is not favorable. We did away with titles and a class system in the COTUS, I don't think it wise to re-create them. And let there be no doubt, sovereign immunity, enhanced/different sentencing guidelines based on victim identity/occupation rather than perpetrator action is such a critter. All ought to be equal under the law and be responsible for their actions.
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Old October 26, 2010, 10:21 AM   #128
dnr1128
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@Powderman

I, for one, am not knocking the officer in the OP. From the narrative posted, I think he acted in a reasonable manner; he sought to place his loved ones out of the line of fire, he tried to have people leave the building calmly prior to it turning into a shoot-out. The death of the young girl is a sad, terrible, tragedy. But it was unforseen by him and, from the story as written, I don't see how he could have avoided it.

Quote:
With a dangerous job like oil drilling , high steel, mining or tower work, normal events follow a pretty well defined script. When something occurs that needs quick correct action, the tools / knowledge / extra skilled people are readily at hand.
I can certify from personal experience that in the drilling industry, there is no script. There are proscribed responses to certain problems, but that doesn't guarantee that things will happen in the way that you expect them to. When a cable snapped and a piece of well casing dropped out of the derrick landing just a few feet away from me, that wasn't scripted. When a hose blew off of the bop stack by a couple of my coworkers after a check valve failed, that wasn't scripted either. Anytime there is the prospect for things going wrong and the situation getting hairy quickly, those involved must be alert and keep their minds on the job at hand. That goes for any job.
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Old October 26, 2010, 10:31 AM   #129
Kmar40
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The stupidity in this thread is stunning.
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Old October 26, 2010, 12:37 PM   #130
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Looks like this thread has outlived its usefulness. It's gone from tactical / training issues to whether or not cops get a free ride.

We should ALL be working to narrow the gap, not widen it.

This one's done. Closed.
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