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Old October 12, 2010, 08:14 AM   #26
.22lr
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Letting the bad guy go because doing otherwise would place innocent people in grave danger needs to be more “socially acceptable” amongst our ranks.
This seems to be the the main thrust of the quoted article. And yet, we are talking about capacity and caliber...

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Old October 12, 2010, 08:23 AM   #27
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The wording of the story begs the question, where was the girl when the shooting started? He didn't see her until he approached the BG and then scanned around behind him. If the BG was 20-25 yards away to start, it sounds as if she may have been somewhere between them to start. Not a good time to announce yourself and draw fire...

The locked fire door also sounds like a big red flag.
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Old October 12, 2010, 08:25 AM   #28
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I have a concealed pistol license but I think I'll keep carrying my little j frame .38 special if it's all the same to you
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Old October 12, 2010, 08:42 AM   #29
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11 rounds from a g26 in 2 seconds and all on target? Right....

Brings the whole story into question.
Wow! The first reply, and the thread has already gone stupid. :barf:
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Old October 12, 2010, 08:52 AM   #30
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I think it does illustrate that if you are well trained with a firearm and trained to shoot until the threat goes away, you can put out a lot of ammunition in a very short time.

Let's say we have a scenario like this where your first round is effective; but it takes about two seconds for you to notice that threat has stopped. Using a single sight picture, my splits are about 0.2 seconds. Reacquiring the sights after every shot slows me down to about 0.5 seconds. That would mean anywhere from 4-10 shots fired in that scenario, even though only one is necessary. If I am carrying a J-frame, I am either dry or have one round left. If I am carrying a G26, I am either dry or halfway through my magazine. Either way, if another threat shows up, I am in a bad place.

I think this phenomenon is something to keep in mind because the people it effects the worst are going to be the people who train the most. I also think that is something that all of us need to consider in our training. The human body can take a lot of abuse. People have remained functional for as long as 13 seconds with their heart destroyed. If you are going to train to keep shooting until you hit slidelock or until the threat goes away, then you need to adjust your ammo load accordingly.
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Old October 12, 2010, 09:19 AM   #31
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One thing that I have considered is the difference in reaction time between a trained LEO, a criminal or a law abiding citizen with a ccw. Of course there will be individual differences but the LEO or the criminal is less likely to hesitate. I was in a SD situation many years ago and the ramifications of what I was doing were running through my mind while the scenario was unfolding. I don't think the average perpetrator agonizes over the possible consequences of his actions. As far as the LEO in this situation, I guess he was trained to protect and defend rather than retreat. The Monday morning quarterbacking with it's would'a, shoud'a, could'a is inevitable but he did what he thought was right at the time.
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Old October 12, 2010, 09:47 AM   #32
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I think the real problem, which has been mentioned by others is, somebody turned a robbery into a firefight, without making sure the customers were safe. The result is a dead little girl.

I spent 20 years in LE, and like most, I carried off duty, I had a similar situation at a KFC. Just after lunch, but still many customers in the store.

I had a gun, I was off duty. I eyeballed the situation, getting every detail I could mentally list of the bandit. Then let him escape. I followed him at a distance until I could get a description of the car. Then called it in.

Yeah I could have tried to stop him in the store, I could have confronted him outside, but there were customers in the store, there were customers fleeing the store. I kept my gun and ID hidden.

No one was hurt, no shots fired. They bandit was caught less then 15 min. later.

Its not about how many rounds you carry, its about knowing when not to shoot as well as when to shoot. Unless I'm missing something from the original story, the bandit was fleeing, no indication that he was going to hurt anyone.

As far as 10 rounds in 2 seconds, I don't know if its possible or not, I don't know the individual nor the gun he was shooting. I do know in a stressful situation its difficult to tell 2 seconds from 5 or 10. I find it hard to believe anyone would consider timing themselves after the pucker factor kicks in.
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Old October 12, 2010, 09:54 AM   #33
Glenn E. Meyer
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Just for info - I've seen six shots in 3.5 to 3.9 for lots of IDPA shooters with Glocks and other semis.

The estimate of time is meaningless as such judgments go out the window.

The real point is made by several a few times. He started a gun fight (if the story is accurate) is an environment with significant risk of innocent lives as compared to the risk of the robber starting shooting if the crime just proceeded without interruption.
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Old October 12, 2010, 10:00 AM   #34
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I don't consider the described incident as a SD situation. Not saying an off duty LEO should not try to stop a robbery, just saying I would have not engaged the BG unless I felt a direct threat. Even after reading said incident, I still fell comfortable carrying my 7 rds. (.45ACP) in my G36.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
I had a gun, I was off duty. I eyeballed the situation, getting every detail I could mentally list of the bandit. Then let him escape. I followed him at a distance until I could get a description of the car. Then called it in.
Sounds like for an LEO that would have been a better way for this guy to have handled the situation.
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Old October 12, 2010, 10:22 AM   #35
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If the officer in question, if this is true, had his stray round hit an innocent - do you think he should be prosecuted?

Killed an innocent or injured one in a manner that might be seen as negligent.

Or if it was your family member, would you sue?

Just curious.
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Old October 12, 2010, 10:42 AM   #36
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I looked up the robbery and from the limited info in the news article this did happen and a little girl was killed by the bad guys shot. It's was caught on video.

It happened on June 16th 1997 in Barstow CA. There are not enough details in the news story on how many shots were fired but the officer did mortally wound the bad guy.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997-06-...d-s-restaurant
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Old October 12, 2010, 11:01 AM   #37
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I should have highlighted the part of ammo.


Quote:
I immediately noted the large semi-automatic pistol in his hand. The distance was about 15 to 20 yards. I drew my weapon, announced myself and took a kneeling position behind the counter. Unfortunately, the suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted. The suspect fired a total of 2 rounds in my direction. I fired 11, striking him 10 times.

My weapon was now empty and I ran from the line of fire to reload my spare magazine.
I then approached the downed suspect and could tell that he was seriously wounded. It was right then that I considered that there might be more than one "bad guy" (the thought had not crossed my mind before this) and I began to scan the 360 to check.

I immediately noticed a small child lying behind me. I saw blood pooling under her head and knew at a glance she was dead. One of the bullets fired at me had struck this child. Unbeknownst to me, my family had tried to exit out the fire door, which was locked. My wife was still trying to get out when the shooting started and she pushed my kids under a table where they all witnessed the gunfight.

The end result was that the suspect died, I survived, but a 9-year-old girl did not.

I tell you this story because I think that this topic is of utmost importance. It is largely ignored in mainstream police training. I want to tell you some of the lessons I learned from this incident:

If you are going to carry a firearm off-duty, you should carry extra ammo. Security camera video of this incident revealed that I fired all 11 rounds from my Glock 26 in about 2 seconds. My extra mag held 17 rounds. Words cannot describe the emotion I felt when I slammed that mag into my weapon and was able to still be in the fight.

Mostly because of circumstances (distance) and my training, my rounds were on target. It could have happened differently and the reality is that most of us miss more than we hit when involved in a gun battle.
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Old October 12, 2010, 11:18 AM   #38
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I will build this post with quotes by others.

Quote:
Whether real or not, I think the guy did pretty well. It is in no way, shape, or form his fault the girl was shot.
Quote:
I'm sorry, but am I missing something? Didn't the crook shoot first?
Quote:
Quote:
I drew my weapon, announced myself
This was his elevation, the BG then aimed and fired.
Quote:
It matters not that we do not condemn him - he has, in a manner of speaking, condemned himself.
And this brings the little girl back to life?

Quote:
kraigwy
I had a gun, I was off duty. I eyeballed the situation, getting every detail I could mentally list of the bandit. Then let him escape. I followed him at a distance until I could get a description of the car. Then called it in.
Regardless of what might be said the Rambo cop caused the little girl’s death.

kraigwy did it the way it should be done.
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Old October 12, 2010, 11:26 AM   #39
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This does show the difference between a trained LEO and a CPL carrier. As a CPL your obligation ends at getting you and your family to safety. It is not to engage the criminal because you are armed. I read these boards a lot and am amazed at how many guys actually look to be involved in a situation. They seem to be saying "today might be the day" when they holster up for the day instead of saying "I hope this stays put all day".

The LEO went into cop mode after he thought his family was safe. A CPL would go out with his family to insure they were safe and motion to anyone else to follow quietly. He would then call 911 from a safe distance.

I thought the story said they BG had a hostage. There is no guarantee that he would have left there peacefully if he already had a hostage and he saw people fleeing, screaming or whatever. There was no guarantee the BG would have left peacefully if the off duty LEO hadn't acted as he did. Someone could have dropped something when he saw the robbery and a loud noise could have set off shots that could have left many dead and wounded.

What if this LEO had left with his family and called it in and it turned into a massacre because something set off the BG and 5 or 6 were killed. His consciance would eat at him the rest of his life as well. It's a lose/lose situation when things like this happen. The LEO did what his training taught him and he has to live with that. We aren't off duty LEOs, we are private citizens. If you want to shoot the BGs then become a cop. Wannabe cops scare the daylights out of me.
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Old October 12, 2010, 11:33 AM   #40
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If you want to shoot the BGs then become a cop.


And here I thought policemen were there for law enforecement, not execution squads...... I don't want any LEOs hitting the street looking for somebody to shoot.

Policemen carry sidearms for SD, same as anybody else.
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Old October 12, 2010, 12:02 PM   #41
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Policemen carry sidearms for SD, same as anybody else.


Huh? Execution squads? Self defense for cops? I think you are either splitting hairs and just trying to be controversial.

I don't know many BGs who go out looking to shoot a cop (SD) but rather prey on helpless people. A cop may not be there to prevent a crime but he then goes out to hunt down the BG to bring him in "dead or alive" as the OLD saying goes. If you go into each day wishing you get to shoot someone then become a cop. The chances are a lot better you'll get your wish although there are probably 90%+ of the LEO population who never shot their gun in the line of duty. (guess on percentage). Another guess is that a LEO has a 1000x better chance of being in the position to use deadly force than the daily CPL. Wannabe cops still scare me.
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Old October 12, 2010, 12:06 PM   #42
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We are trying to decide if the LEO's actions were justified and it seems as if it's a big deal that he was off duty. If he had been in uniform would you condemn his actions? It seems that he tried his best to move people to safety and uphold the law. I'm just wondering if there would be a different response from himself and the forum if he was wearing different clothing?


I don't think I fault him for his actions. Why did the BG come back out to the front with his gun pulled? Didn't he already get the money from the back? What are his intentions now? Isn't he going to be slightly peeved when he notices that everyone leaves and can identify him? Too many questions to answer honestly. The main one that sticks out in my mind is that his gun is pulled, he's in public and he's already committed one crime at least. I guess the LEO could have waited to see what he was going to do. But tactically speaking I'm guessing the LEO had quite a bit bigger advantage from 15-20 yards using his shooting skills than from 5 yards where he's going to have a much higher chance of being randomly struck by a bullet.

And yes, if it had been my daughter, I would be very very upset and may view the whole thing differently.

And if I had been there I would have just exited with my family and called 911from safety. As all civilian should have done.
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Old October 12, 2010, 01:11 PM   #43
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My question:

Why did he shoot the BG 11 times? If it were me, I would double tap; one in the chest, one in the head; not spray 11 rounds all at once. Give me a break!
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Old October 12, 2010, 01:16 PM   #44
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You keep shooting until the threat is stopped.
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Old October 12, 2010, 02:20 PM   #45
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Quote:
It matters not that we do not condemn him - he has, in a manner of speaking, condemned himself.
And this brings the little girl back to life?
Of course it doesn't. But neither does sitting in a comfy chair 13 years later and condemning a man who devoted his working life to upholding the law, one who made the best decisions he could in the mere seconds he had to make them.

Do I think Krgwy handled it better? Yes, no doubt. But with a dynamic and dangerous situation, should we expect human beings, whether LEOs or ourselves as armed civilians, to make perfect decisions in every moment? I am willing to say that you are asking too much of me if that is your expectation.

Last edited by TailGator; October 12, 2010 at 02:42 PM.
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Old October 12, 2010, 02:30 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
If the officer in question, if this is true, had his stray round hit an innocent - do you think he should be prosecuted?
That's a hard call...at least for me. I think, given the information, I would not want to prosecute the LEO if his round had hit an innocent person. The LEO may not have used the best judgment, but he was not the one breaking the law. The BG's are the most at fault for even attempting the robbery.

Others may think different.
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Old October 12, 2010, 02:49 PM   #47
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Letting the bad guy go because doing otherwise would place innocent people in grave danger needs to be more “socially acceptable” amongst our ranks. I think we're starting to see more of this in the pursuit policies of most agencies and I have tried to carry this message over into my training and teaching.
A.A. +1. Without sounding trite its’ better that 1,000 suspects get away NOW than to needlessly endanger the life of 1 citizen!
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Old October 12, 2010, 02:55 PM   #48
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We are trying to decide if the LEO's actions were justified and it seems as if it's a big deal that he was off duty. If he had been in uniform would you condemn his actions?
The core issue is "don't conduct a gunfight in a bystander-dense environment if you can help it". That rule should apply the same regardless for CCW holders, off-duty cops, plainclothes cops, uniformed cops.

The sole difference with the uniformed cop is that the uniform itself can trigger a gunfight. Better to get that uniform completely out of sight, if this is a place where you don't want a gunfight to happen.

As a CCW holder, my first plan would be to fade back, hide, watch, look like any other type of civilian, and start a gunfight ONLY! if the alternatives are worse, like if the goblin turned full-on murderer, rapist, etc. Then he's going to get a Gold Dot surprise.
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Old October 12, 2010, 02:56 PM   #49
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I have no LEO experience & i have never needed to use a firearm in a life or death situation. I feel bad for the guy, it's really one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. You make decisions based on what you know and what you think you know at the time.

Why was the fire exit door locked?
I thought the whole point of them was to allow customers easy egress in the event of an emergency. Perhaps an emergency such as a fire, robbery, earthquake, gas leak...
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Old October 12, 2010, 03:43 PM   #50
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I truly belive this story cements my position on staying the heck out of McDonalds. Been beat up in one myself.

Everyone makes dicesions, he made one that turned bad for the little girl. I fault the BG 100%. Myself? I owuld have gotten my family out, then get as much info as possible IE license plate maybe a pic with the cell phone etc.
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