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Old March 5, 2012, 02:24 PM   #26
lawnboy
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It's never over. But a win is a win.

The day after the 28th amendment gets passed with the text

"Citizens may buy, keep, carry and use all guns of any type whereever and whenever they desire"

you can bet the campaign to repeal it will begin. Sponsored by the usual suspects.

We won't give up, why should we expect them to??
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Old March 5, 2012, 02:41 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by CowTowner
I wonder if the state will appeal or did we really get a win?
The case is a limited win if it is not appealed. If the case if appealed, it has the potential to go to the Supreme Court and be a big win.
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Old March 5, 2012, 03:44 PM   #28
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Question..This is federal district court...for Maryland...does this case need to be appealed up one level to affect Washington DC? Or two levels?

I am wondering because of DC's sudden willingness to modify it's firearm law because of "pending court rulings" and the spotlight Emily Miller has put on their firearm's laws?

Edit to add second question: Do you think that DC will put political pressure on MD to try keep it from being appealed?
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Old March 5, 2012, 04:12 PM   #29
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It was a Federal court ruling on the constitutionality of a provision in a Maryland State law. It could apply the the entire US, but likely each State with laws and provisions similar to Maryland would have to be challenged separately.

Some of the lawyer types on TFL can correct me but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of it.
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Old March 5, 2012, 04:34 PM   #30
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Quote:
Question..This is federal district court...for Maryland...does this case need to be appealed up one level to affect Washington DC? Or two levels?
It would need to be appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States to affect D. C. As it stands now, it mainly impacts this specific case; but it is progress.

Quote:
I am wondering because of DC's sudden willingness to modify it's firearm law because of "pending court rulings" and the spotlight Emily Miller has put on their firearm's laws?
I think that has more to do with D.C.'s lawyers pointing out obvious problems in the D.C. law - and I am sure there were some practical difficulties with implementation as well. The crazier D.C. makes their laws, the easier it is for us to pick which one to attack and clarify the boundaries of the Second Amendment in our favor. D.C. likely decided to abandon some of the rules that were clearly not going to pass muster and avoid costly litigation/giving us that opportunity.

Quote:
Edit to add second question: Do you think that DC will put political pressure on MD to try keep it from being appealed?
I think D.C. has plenty to worry about on there own; but I am sure the defendants in these various suits are communicating and discussing strategy.
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Old March 5, 2012, 04:39 PM   #31
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Another nice quote from the decision:
Quote:
At bottom, this case rests on a simple proposition: If the Government wishes to burden a right guaranteed by the Constitution, it may do so provided that it can show a satisfactory justification and a sufficiently adapted method. The showing, however, is always the Government’s to make. A citizen may not be required to offer a “good and substantial reason”
why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right’s existence is all the reason he needs.
Quote:
Question..This is federal district court...for Maryland...does this case need to be appealed up one level to affect Washington DC? Or two levels?
The law at issue only affects Maryland, so the desicion only applies to Maryland. MD is in the 4th Circuit, so an appeal would go there. DC has its own federal district court and it own court of appeal circuit (DC Circuit). An appeal to the US Supreme Court would still only affect the Maryland law at issue, but the analysis would then have persuasive value to courts throughout the US.
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Old March 5, 2012, 05:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
The case is a limited win if it is not appealed.
True, but it could set up precedent if Judge Legg's opinion is used in other suits.

Quote:
If the case if appealed, it has the potential to go to the Supreme Court and be a big win.
That's what I'm really hoping for. If you read the background on Woollard's situation, it's hard not to be sympathetic. Furthermore, he's not appealing a criminal conviction, he's just a guy whose very safety is endangered by an unjust law. This one has good odds of being heard.
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Old March 5, 2012, 05:11 PM   #33
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I've been watching this and the other carry cases very closely. Given how predictably the others seemingly have marched through the process, with loss after loss for the plaintiffs in the lower courts (Hightower, Muller, Kachalsky, Moore, Richards, Peruta, etc.), I was frankly ASTONISHED by this judgement. I would be equally astonished if MD just gave up... I can't believe they will, any more than Chicago and others of that... breed.

However... during the interim, is anything likely to happen for the people of MD in terms of the right to carry? I'm guessing not, if only because any right acknowledged now would be stripped away again if the appeal was lost, which just seems ridiculous... but a lot of this seems ridiculous to me anyways, so I have no way to know.

Any thoughts from the legal cognoscenti here?

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Old March 5, 2012, 05:16 PM   #34
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It's as huge a win in district court as you can get, is what this is. Maryland has no choice but to appeal, as this strikes a dagger into the heart of its handgun licensing scheme.
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Old March 5, 2012, 05:35 PM   #35
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I agree csmsss.

It should be understood that this was going to be appealed, regardless of who won. However... There is currently a bill before the MD legislature that would make MD a "shall issue" state and if passed (and signed into law), would moot any further action in the courts.

However unlikely this might have been before this decision, it now requires its legislatures to rethink their positions. They can kill the proposed bill and take their chances in the Circuit Court. That can be real risky at this time, because a decision there will affect more than just MD. Then there is the SCOTUS to consider....

Think chess, not checkers.
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Old March 5, 2012, 06:09 PM   #36
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Awesome to read the news today - found it first on volokh in a post by david kopel today and have been following comments. Living in Illinois after the awful initial decision in one of the carry/bear lawsuits here - it was a real lift to finally see a lawsuit with a positive outcome - gives me hope that a case will reach the USSC before the composition is changed and that a ruling verifying the right to carry/bear arms is rendered.
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Old March 5, 2012, 06:33 PM   #37
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Al, I haven't followed Maryland politics as closely as I used to when I lived there quite some time ago. Do you really think O'Malley would sign a shall-issue bill if it passed the MD Legislature? And if he vetoed it, would the Legislature override?
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Old March 5, 2012, 07:00 PM   #38
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Maryland law unconstitutional

fox news is reporting that a Federal Judge has ruled Marylands carry law unconstitutional.http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...onstitutional/

Judge Legg is quoted as saying "A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and substantial reason' why he should be permitted to exercise his rights," Legg wrote. "The right's existence is all the reason he needs."



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz1oI2eroXo

good news. Probably the Illinois, California and all other restrictive Federal Judge rulings are going to SCOTS.
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Old March 5, 2012, 07:04 PM   #39
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Quote:
That can be real risky at this time, because a decision there will affect more than just MD. Then there is the SCOTUS to consider.
I really wanted this to be the one to go before the Supreme Court, and it looks like that's a possibility.

The MD Attorney General has 30 days to appeal, so we'll wait to see what happens. If he appeals, it goes to the 4th Circuit.

Here's the fun part: Judge Legg uses a couple of recent 4th Circuit opinions to justify his decisionn. If the 4th wants to reverse, that puts them in an awkward position.
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Old March 5, 2012, 07:10 PM   #40
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Does this decision conflict with the decisions coming out of Illinois and the 9the circuit?

If so I thought that would cause an automatic appeal to SCOTUS?
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Old March 5, 2012, 07:17 PM   #41
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!!!!!!Yea!!!!!!

Yea first step.
Even the Washington Post put it up on the top line:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...osR_story.html
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Old March 5, 2012, 07:55 PM   #42
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The case will have to go to the First (?) Circuit Court of Appeals before anyone can ask the Supreme Court to accept it.
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Old March 5, 2012, 08:04 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawnboy
It was a Federal court ruling on the constitutionality of a provision in a Maryland State law. It could apply the the entire US, but likely each State with laws and provisions similar to Maryland would have to be challenged separately.
No, and yes. Every state with similar statutory provisions has to be challenged separately. So "yes" on that part.

Now for the "no" part. It's a district (trial) court ruling, so it could be cited as persuasive authority in a challenge to a state law with similar provisions. However, it's not binding authority on any other district court, inside or outside the 4th Circuit.

Once it goes up on appeal, the appellate court (Fourth Circuit) will make a decision, and that decision will be binding on all Fourth Circuit district courts. The 4th Circuit decision can be cited as persuasive authority in district courts of other circuits.

If it is then appealed to SCOTUS, the SCOTUS decision will be binding on all circuit courts of appeal and all district courts.
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Old March 5, 2012, 11:30 PM   #44
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The 4th Circuit decision can be cited as persuasive authority in district courts of other circuits.
Gene Hoffman has already said that this decision will be cited as an authority in all carry cases going forward.

Attorney General Fader said this evening that he plans on appealing, which will fast-track it to the 4th Circuit. Politically, he's expected to do so, but I'm guessing he knows he won't win. Legg's ruling uses Chester and Masciandaro to bolster his arguments, and I doubt they'll want to backpedal on those.

The likely result? We'll have a 4th Circuit decision that conflicts with Moore in the 7th Circuit. That means it could be on its way to the Supreme Court next year.

Over at CalGuns, Gray Peterson mentioned that a stay is unlikely to be granted, and that at the moment, Maryland is a shall-issue state. Hyperbole? Perhaps, but that apparently hasn't stopped folks from blowing up the phones at municipal offices statewide asking for applications
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Old March 6, 2012, 12:02 AM   #45
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md ruling

Sent a donation to, and joined the SAF right after I heard the decision. The NRA does a fine job, but the SAF is a ground roots org. I like that.
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Old March 6, 2012, 06:44 AM   #46
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Tom, did Judge Legg issue injunctive relief? I didn't see that in the opinion.
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Old March 6, 2012, 07:06 AM   #47
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The Md. attorney general was on WTOP (Washington, DC news radio) this morning talking about the appeal and how it's a matter of public safety.

Blah blah blah.
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Old March 6, 2012, 07:22 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
The 4th Circuit decision can be cited as persuasive authority in district courts of other circuits.
Gene Hoffman has already said that this decision will be cited as an authority in all carry cases going forward.
I read the opinion in its entirety last night. It is both well-written and well-reasoned. If I were litigating 2A cases, I'd cite it, too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
The likely result? We'll have a 4th Circuit decision that conflicts with Moore in the 7th Circuit. That means it could be on its way to the Supreme Court next year.
That's what I was thinking. Judge Legg recognized that other circuits have gone off in the other direction on RKBA than he did, and there's a very real chance that this will create a split of authority.
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Old March 6, 2012, 10:48 AM   #49
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Way cool. CA is now even further isolated from the real world, with VA retiring one-gun-a-month. In various counties, CA is effectively shall issue. it is mainly the open-minded, inclusive and innovative liberal bastions that are terrified about someone other than cops and criminals carrying concealed.

I might submit a copy of the opinion with my application, with a few words highlighted...
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Old March 6, 2012, 11:06 AM   #50
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I'll ask again. Does anyone know if Judge Legg ordered injunctive relief in this case? None of the reporting. I'e ead mentions it. The published opinion does not either.
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