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Old October 9, 2010, 06:32 PM   #1
TXAZ
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Both fingers on the trigger= tighter pattern... good or bad?

I noticed when I but both my left and right trigger fingers, one on top of the other, I seem to have measurably tighter patterns.
A friend who shots a lot in competitions said only use one, but could offer no reason why.

So, any reason I shouldn't (or should) or other feedback?
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Old October 9, 2010, 06:54 PM   #2
mete
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When you use two fingers that means you have two sets of muscles to control ! That's why putting your finger in front of the trigger guard is not a good idea.
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Old October 9, 2010, 07:06 PM   #3
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You may not (probably won't) be able to use both hands in a real incident.

Not all guns allow both fingers inside the trigger guard.
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Old October 9, 2010, 07:55 PM   #4
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Just goes against every teaching on trigger control and mechanics.
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Old October 9, 2010, 08:17 PM   #5
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Doesn't seem right to me, but whether or not it's even a good idea, I don't see how it's even possible unless you have very petite hands and fingers.
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Old October 10, 2010, 12:16 AM   #6
TXAZ
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Sig226, both fingers fit in with a little room to spare. Hands are at least average size.
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Old October 10, 2010, 01:55 AM   #7
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Sorry to say but it makes no sense to me either. The only thing I can think of is that you are cancelling out the effect of push or pull with your finger. By that, I mean it reduces the effect of pulling the trigger with the wrong part of your finger. If you pull with the very tip, you tend to "push" your shots. If you put your finger in too far, you "pull" your shots. Try making sure you pull the trigger with just the pad of your index finger.

I guess the worst possible thing that can happen is developing bad habits. Most people will react the way they practice. Pulling the trigger with both fingers is not practical at all.

Do some searches on how to properly grip the gun. The fingers of the support hand usually wraps around the front the hand your gun is in. The support hand thumb is usually either sticking up or laid on top of your other hand. Your gun hand should be pushing slightly forward and your support hand should be pulling slightly back. Do NOT death grip your gun as this will hurt accuracy.
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Old October 10, 2010, 02:50 AM   #8
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There is obviously something wrong with your trigger pull.

If the only reason you shoot is for target purposes, you should fix it.

If the only reason you shoot is self defence, too many things could go wrong while you are trying to stuff your second finger into the trigger guard, so you should fix it.

I just can't see any good reason to shoot with 2 fingers on the trigger.
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Old October 10, 2010, 03:48 AM   #9
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Interesting

TXAZ

I once had to train a very petite Indian girl, her Dad owned a Security Company in Ontario Canada, she only worked in the Office, but had access to the revolvers, she booked them in and out.

Guns, S&W .38 Spl. double action only, had been made that way by a good Gun Smith. A 9 lb pull? Smooth as glass. She could not pull the trigger with one finger, did great with two, all shooting was two hands. She could not have been licensed, but fine for use, in house, so to speak.

Your Sig is double action first shot (Jeff Cooper said that was a perfect answer to a non existent problem) if you want to do that, two fingers, it's your gun, you have heard the good advice (read) fill your boots.
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Old October 10, 2010, 06:44 AM   #10
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Bad idea and bad habit to form.

That would be like using two feet to drive, breaking and gas.

Reasons to us 1 dedicated finger
1) Some pistols, and all rifles, won't allow you to use 2 fingers
2) In stressful situations, fitting a second finger on top of the first takes more time and may unintentionally fire the weapon.
3) Brain works best sending orders to fewer muscles and adding another trigger finger in the mix could cause for confusion. Remember that in stressful times, fine motor skills deminish. Best to keep one designated finger for training.
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Old October 10, 2010, 10:42 AM   #11
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It's an acceptable but not ideal method for getting arthritic, frail little old ladies up and shooting with the inappropriate heavy-trigger hard-kicking lightweight snubbies people always shove into their hands.

Other than that, notsomuch. Either build up your strength so you're able to manipulate the trigger with your trigger finger, or purchase a firearm with a trigger better suited to your strength.

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Old October 10, 2010, 11:07 AM   #12
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Thanks everyone, good input. No, I'm just starting, and that's why I asked.
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Old October 10, 2010, 11:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
A friend who shots a lot in competitions said only use one, but could offer no reason why.
When people suggest or mandate a course of action but cannot give a reason why it should be followed, then there is reason to question the validity of what they want you to do. They may be correct, or not, and the fact that they can't explain to you why you should choose a particular course of action indicates that they may not fully understand what they are talking about.

Quote:
If the only reason you shoot is for target purposes, you should fix it.
I see target shooters do a lot of stuff I consider weird and they shoot very well. A lot of what I have seen does not transfer well to situations outside of target shooting, such as to self defense shooting. If you are only target shooting and it poses no safety problems while at the same time making your shots better, then I see no problem. People will give you grief for it, however.

Quote:
That would be like using two feet to drive, breaking and gas.
No, it would be nothing like using two feet to drive. In using two feet to drive, the feet often need to be doing different tasks on different pedals, and those tasks are sometimes being accomplished simultaneously and at other times being accomplished asynchronously, though many racecar drivers drive in this manner and do so quite successfully. In fact, it is necessary to get the best performance out of their cars by driving in this manner. By contrast, when using two opposing fingers to pull the trigger, the fingers are performing the same task on the same mechanism at the same time in a mirror fashion.

Quote:
3) Brain works best sending orders to fewer muscles
Okay, explain. How is it that the brain is working better sending orders to fewer muscles and is the difference significant?

Given that sympathic reflex often results in one hand mirroring the actions of the other, such as with squeezing actions under stress, I don't see how sending the same signal to both fingers to pull the trigger is going to be a problem.

So is it easier to stand balanced on one foot using half the muscles and supposedly allowing the brain to work best or is it best to stand balanced on two feet, using twice as many muscles and taxing the brain so much more?

I know a lot of shooters find it much easier to shoot well using a twohanded grip on their guns instead of onehanded. Controlling double the muscles does not seem to be a detriment to them at all.

Quote:
Remember that in stressful times, fine motor skills deminish.
Right, and because fine motor skills diminish, the fine balance of trigger pull/squeeze/depression being performed assymetrically by one finger is going to be much more difficult to keep balanced under stress given that the balanced pull is being attempted through an asymmetric process of using one finger on one side. The balance is more easily controlled when the input to move the trigger is symmetrical. And that is likely why TXAZ's groups are tighter when he is using opposing fingers simultaneously to pull the trigger. Balance is more easily attained through bilateral symmetric action than by unilateral assymetric action.

Quote:
If the only reason you shoot is self defence, too many things could go wrong while you are trying to stuff your second finger into the trigger guard, so you should fix it.
Right. Most guns are not designed in such a manner to allow for sufficient room inside the trigger guard for more than one finger with sufficient extra space for proper motion and placement. The more things stuffed inside the trigger guard, the more likely the trigger will be depressed unintentionally. This will be especially apparent in winter when you have on gloves.

The problem of trying to fit multiple fingers inside the trigger guard can become even more problematic if you are needing to use your offhand to perform other tasks and transitioning between gripping your gun with the finger inside the trigger guard and doing things like opening doors, fending off blows, doing magazine changes and the like.

Using multiple fingers can be advantageous in certain circumstances but does add a level of complexity to the issue that has the potential to affect safety.
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Old October 10, 2010, 01:31 PM   #14
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Good post Double OO,

In my case the young lady in question could not pull the trigger with one finger, at all, period. And her finger was not on top of the other one, they were one above the other, the double action Smith gave you that ability.

You had to see these hands to understand, in asking her, in a normal handshake mode, to squeeze my hand just as tight as she could, Wow, like a wee kittens grip.
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Old October 10, 2010, 08:39 PM   #15
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Thanks 00,
great feedback and insight.
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Old October 10, 2010, 10:07 PM   #16
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two fingered trigger pull

I did some plinking with a .22 handgun as a kid. I never was very good and had no idea of how to do it correctly. I recently purchased a new pistol and revolver. I've been careful to learn proper technique; grip, stance, target acquisition, sight picture, etc. I am not a great shot, but I have made real progress. Knowing how to do it right, and doing it that way every time is my goal. When I first started fishing with a baitcast reel I had to deliberately focus on every part of the cast to get it right. Now after years of doing it, I just focus on the spot I want to hit. I want shooting to be the same way. So what's your point you might ask. My point is good technique makes for good results. There are always exceptions. One look at Jim Furyk's golf swing will prove that you can do well even if you don't do it "right", but most of us mere mortals need every advantage we can get.
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Old October 10, 2010, 10:32 PM   #17
Wildalaska
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Quote:
That's why putting your finger in front of the trigger guard is not a good idea.
Dang, now I know why I miss an occasional shot on the man sized target at 100 yards with my 9mm Browning or SIG 210. Its that dumb 40 plus year old habit of puttin my finger in front of the trigger guard


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Old October 13, 2010, 03:08 PM   #18
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Why would you even try it in the first place? The idea has never even crossed my mind.
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Old October 13, 2010, 05:01 PM   #19
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Finger in front of the guard is a well-known and perfectly acceptable technique. It won't cause your other finger to suddenly forget how to shoot. The advantage to moving it off of the guard and onto the grip of the weapon is that it allows you to get a tighter hold which may be necessary for certain types of shooting.

I was a finger on the guard shooter until I took my first defensive handgun class and was asked to try it out the other way. Sure enough, it gave me a bit more weapon control allowing quicker follow-up shots. That's the only benefit and the only downside. While it may not be "in favor" it's not really a detriment to shooting stability like the teacup method or some other "outdated" shooting techniques.
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Old October 13, 2010, 07:51 PM   #20
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Response to AcridSaint

I don't believe that is what he is talking about as I understand it he is putting the trigger finger of his non dominant hand on top of his shooting finger and then pulling the trigger with... I guess the non dominant hand putting pressure on the trigger finger? Or is it equal pressure? I'm still highly confused as to how he even thought of doing that.
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Old October 13, 2010, 08:04 PM   #21
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I believe the Saint was responding to Wildalaska's post about a 40-year habit of placing his offhand index finger over the front of the trigger guard. The OP was, indeed, speaking of squeezing the trigger with both index fingers.
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Old October 13, 2010, 11:29 PM   #22
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Sorry for the confusion I was replying to mete and wildaslaska, not the OP.
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Old October 14, 2010, 09:42 AM   #23
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Quote:
Sure enough, it gave me a bit more weapon control allowing quicker follow-up shots. That's the only benefit and the only downside.
AcridSaint,

Good post, but I'll add one more thing: there is a significant downside to placing one's non-dom finger in front of the trigger guard. It's a safety issue. When you have built the habit of placing your finger there every time you shoot, and then pick up a small, short-barrel firearm, that non-dom finger can't safely go where you habitually place it. All it takes then is just a brief moment of inattention for you to blow your own non-dom finger off.

See, for example, this pistol -- and picture what would happen if the finger-on-front-of-trigger-guard shooter reverted to habit even once while firing it.

This didn't so much matter years ago, when tiny pistols were a bit less common and didn't have those oversized trigger guards. But it matters a bit more now, with modern designs.

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Old October 14, 2010, 09:59 AM   #24
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This didn't so much matter years ago, when tiny pistols were a bit less common and didn't have those oversized trigger guards. But it matters a bit more now, with modern designs.
Thats why this dedicated finger in front of trigger guard shooter doesnt shoot modern designs

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Old October 14, 2010, 10:00 AM   #25
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BAD, for Safety, if for nothing else

Quote:
both fingers fit in with a little room to spare.
Sticking that second finger in there when the first is already on the trigger, especially in a stressfull situation, could fire the gun before you are ready....

... Nothing goes inside the trigger guard except you trigger finger, and then only when the sights are on the target.
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