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Old July 24, 2011, 12:54 AM   #1
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Learned a lesson tonight

My first post on TFL but, I have been learning things here for the last year.

Tonight I went with my daughter to get a treat at the ice cream shop down the road. I was unbuckling her from her car seat (she is 3 years old) when a car blaring music pulled up very close to my open door. I grabbed my truck door because it was so close. I thought nothing of it and helped my daughter from the truck. We made it 20 feet away from the truck when the driver of the other car started yelling at us. He was angry that I yanked my door out of the way. I guess I offended him. He was being very threatening verbally and was advancing towards us. Here is my problem. I left my main carry gun at home. I only had my BUG on my ankle. I was in a very bad situation, if he made real on his threats.

I remained calm and stepped in front of my 3 year old. I slowly walked away from him without breaking eye contact. i told him I didn't mean anything by moving my door and that I didn't have a problem with him. My daughter was scared and crying. I made it out into the parking lot with two cars between us before he finally disengaged.

All I could think through this whole incident was what a dumb ### I am.

What would have happened if he had ran at me with only my BUG on my ankle. I cringe at the thought. Mostly for my daughter.

I am now looking at pocket holsters for the LC9 I am going to buy Monday.

Anyone else ever use an ankle holster for their BUG? I would like to hear your thoughts.

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Old July 24, 2011, 01:35 AM   #2
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Wow, glad everything turned out ok. I used to keep my BUG in an ankle holster but quickly changed my mind when it kept shifting around when I walked. I now keep it IWB at 12:00. I keep my main gun OWB at 4:00ish. This way if the BG is behind me I can get a gun, If the BG is in front I can get a gun. If i'm seated I can easily reach my BUG.

What works for me may not work for you, wear your BUG in a way that works best for you.
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Old July 24, 2011, 01:52 AM   #3
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As he advanced yelling I'd have already been drawing from the ankle, because if things did get violent I wouldn't have time to. You did well, though, to de-escalate the situation and get out of there without risking your daughter.

Remember, no one was harmed. You achieved directive #1 of any self-defense scenario.

That said, this is why I pocket carry. If things get tense, I can already have a grip on my LCP without letting anyone know I am ready.

Well, I have big hands. I can have like a 3-finger grip to get it out of the pocket.
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Old July 24, 2011, 02:53 AM   #4
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This is why I never considerred ankle carry. If you need it you don't have time to waste. I carry IWB and carried in pocket when possible.

There really isn't a reason to buy a new gun. Just get a good pocket holster and keep moving on. Of course a 9 in the pocket is better than a .32 in the same place.

You handled things very well. You protected your daughter in the best way you could. You went home safe and so did she. To me that is the perfect outcome.
Here's my credo: There are no good guns, There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people.
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Old July 24, 2011, 05:20 AM   #5
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I understand your concern and believe you did right.

What I don’t understand is that door. You pulled it shut? And that torqued him? Seems to me you encountered a genuine fruitcake.
No people should have to fear the will of their government; all governments should have to fear the will of their people.
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Old July 24, 2011, 05:36 AM   #6
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This is getting common among a certain element. Anything you do that shows displeasure with their actions is seen as an insult or "actin' all better than" them. When you express displeasure or concern over their behavior in the smallest way they take it as a personal attack.

It is like the face book page for the robber in Michigan. He was complaining that the victim shot his friend that started the attack. He didn't see it as self defense he saw it as disrespect torwards him and his friend. It didn't matter that they started the whole incident and that the victim was fighting for his life. It became about the victim being weak because he defended himself with a gun. The victim had no right to do that.

Well the OP was protecting himself and his daughter from a person that was acting foolishly. In their "gangsta" mind set you don't have the right to do that. They get to do whatever they want and you are supposed to live with it because they aren't really doing any damage to you. Even if they do cause damage it isn't their fault in their eyes. That is a whole other topic though.

The guy might be a nut job but it is what I call "gangsta narcissim."
Here's my credo: There are no good guns, There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people.
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Old July 24, 2011, 07:19 AM   #7
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Your happenstance is indicative of the way the world is degenerating in the most alarming of fashions. A simple act of closing your door sets someone in a bipolar rage. You did a good job of keeping your cool, diffusing the situation, and most of all, keeping your child safe. Remember the gun is not the first thing to turn to but should only be used if there is no other alternative.

Your example is yet another reason to never leave the safety of your fortress without your EDC gun AND your BUG. I gave ankle holsters a try for awhile but found them to be uncomfortable and not the easiest to get at.

My EDC is a Kimber Pro Carry in a Galco OWB belt holster worn at the 2:30 position. I wear longer outside shirts to cover my artillery. My BUG is a Kimber Ultra Carry in a Rhino Holster worn at the 10:30 position. I like this setup as it gives me good access while I am driving to get at a gun as the BUG is in a cross draw position.

I carry a double mag pouch with 8 round magazines which will fit into either gun. It does stick out of the Ultra Carry but if it ever got to the point that I would need to use that gun with an 8 round mag, I don't think I would be gigged any points for appearance.

As I have said before in this Forum, the way one carries is a matter of personal preference and you may have to experiment somewhat as most of us have done. The end result is you will determine what works best for you and in all likelihood, have a box of useless holsters that could fall into the category of "what was I thinking."

And of course, if you are going to carry, carry all time. As you have seen, all it takes is once to be without a gun and that will be the time you will most need it. It is far better to have it and never have to use it then to need it and not have it.
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Old July 24, 2011, 09:40 AM   #8
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I'm amazed at the chutzpah that some people display. I'm a very considerate bike rider, but some woman decided to come up to me as I was getting into the saddle on a shared path and started insisting I tell her my name and accused me of running dog walkers off the path. Couldn't be further from the truth as dog walkers will let their dogs off leash to attack anyone, or release their extendable leashes so far the dog and leash are blocking the whole path. I never say a word. Yet this little 140lb woman has the nerve to come up to someone she believes is aggressive, who out weighs her (at the time) by 100lbs alone in the woods and mouths off.

I simply ignored her as she finally resorted to shouting at me as I rode off. Sheesh. Some day she's going to do that to a really angry person and get smacked upside the head.
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Old July 24, 2011, 09:54 AM   #9
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Great job of handling a potentially violent situation. You did good my friend. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to swallow ones pride. I'd bet anything your daughter being there had a whole lot to do with your reaction.

In other threads I have given my opinion of ankle carry. I have absoloutly no use for it. I believe it to be dangerous.

Another interesting point that you bring up is the fact that you left your EDC home... after all what could happen at an ice cream shop? I have several times questioned why so many people opt. for a full sized service pistol for EDC. Then jump through hoops trying to conceal it. A bigger gun can be an annoyance. And is often left home. I personally dont subscribe to the terminology of a back-up gun (BUG). Except for police, security, high risk situations. As a cop it's mostly refered to as an off duty, or a second gun. Back up is more a method, or a mission for the second gun.

Again carrying the service pistol/revolver can be a pain and all too often leads to carrying no gun at all. I propose the concept of a EDC gun. More comfortable to carry, and easier to conceal as the primary EDC. In the civilian non-threat world the service sized pistol would become the second gun shoud the carrier feel the need to up-gun.

All based on my own personal experience, and training.

Glenn D.

P/S I personally and very strongly recoment that anyone who carries for self defense own at least one service sized pistol, and one EDC smaller carry gun.
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Old July 24, 2011, 10:00 AM   #10
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Here's what you really learned.
When it happens it will happen fast and you won't be prepared.
You'll be playing catchup the whole time.

'Qui tacet consentit': To remain silent is to consent.
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Old July 24, 2011, 10:09 AM   #11
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I think you are right.

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Old July 24, 2011, 10:23 AM   #12
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The aggressor is almost always at least one step ahead in the loop. We will almost always be playing catchup in a critical incident. Good situational awareness helps, and has a zero downside.
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
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Old July 24, 2011, 10:45 AM   #13
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I'm glad to hear you got out the situation without more of a scare.

When you need to act in self-defense, you are playing catch-up. You are reacting to someone's act that you perceive as an imminent threat. You need your weapon "right now"!

We make many compromises in choosing to carry a concealed handgun. To carry a concealed weapon while maintaining the weapon concealed and secure, we must make compromises. Compromises which enable you to engage the threat faster are desirable.

As you have experienced, one compromise in where and how you carry your handgun. You now know that you felt you would never have been able to draw your gun from your ankle holster before the threat had closed the range and attacked you if he had chosen to do so.
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Old July 24, 2011, 11:02 AM   #14
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You did well, though, to de-escalate the situation and get out of there without risking your daughter.

Remember, no one was harmed. You achieved directive #1 of any self-defense scenario.
Jump, you did just fine; remember that anytime any of us can end an ugly situation without violence you did good.
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Old July 24, 2011, 11:11 AM   #15
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Lesson #1 here, if you carry, never leave your "main carry" at home! Unless you're going to be going through a metal detector/body search area, you should never be unarmed. Never.
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Old July 24, 2011, 02:09 PM   #16
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MikeNice nailed it. I have observed this behavior myself many times. Most of the people who express this kind of behavior have nothing going for them in life, many have been in and out of jail already and have nothing to lose. I consider them extremely dangerous.
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Old July 24, 2011, 02:21 PM   #17
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I'm not here to raise any hairs, or stir the pot, but I am going to say this the best way I know how. Again, I do not mean any offense to any present company, but please hear me out.

From what the OP is telling me, his first line of defense was to reach for his CCW in a verbal confrontation with an unknown enemy, and without knowing if the aggressor was carrying anything other than his fists!

So you see how I'm looking at this?

From a legal stand point, at what point does a CCW Permit holder make the decision to pull a loaded firearm on an unarmed aggressor?

Maybe I'm thinking a little differently than some as I do not live in a high crime area, and am not faced with the daily threat of possible loss of life or property. However, regardless of the location, at what point does the CCW turn into a criminal?

Do you understand what I'm saying?
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Old July 24, 2011, 02:34 PM   #18
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Riverwalker... That is the million dollar question, and the one that always makes me question a number of the responders to threads in this forum where their first response is to draw their weapon.

Legally, he could be charged with brandishing and lose his CCW permit, if he did fire it is likely assault with. Deadly weapon, particularly if Mr. Loudmouth was unarmed.

Personally, I think his deescalation. Of the threat was the only possible solution at this point.
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Old July 24, 2011, 02:54 PM   #19
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JUMP said he had a gun; he did not say he drew it or even started to draw it.

I’m not completely familiar with AZ law but most carry states do not require you to be threatened with a gun in order to defend yourself with a gun.

In Texas hands are lethal weapons (by case law per my CHL instructor).

Check list for going to the ice cream store:
Baseball bat in case BG has a bat;
Hunting knife in case BG has a hunting knife;
Pen knife in case BG has a pen knife;
Brass knuckles in case BG says he’s going to whip my ass;
No people should have to fear the will of their government; all governments should have to fear the will of their people.
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Old July 24, 2011, 03:39 PM   #20
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Ankle holsters are silly.

Off topic: riverwalker76 - And there's no evidence that Yamomoto ever said that bit about invading America.

Last edited by ConlawBloganon; July 24, 2011 at 03:51 PM.
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Old July 24, 2011, 03:58 PM   #21
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gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner
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Old July 24, 2011, 04:41 PM   #22
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All I could think through this whole incident was what a dumb ### I am.
No. What a dumb ### he is. You are obviously dealing here with someone on the lower end of the Bell Curve. With the exponential expansion of the population, seems they're all over the place. It's getting so bad out there, I am considering a 45 caliber for a primary, and anther 45 caliber as a BUG.
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Old July 24, 2011, 04:56 PM   #23
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From a legal stand point, at what point does a CCW Permit holder make the decision to pull a loaded firearm on an unarmed aggressor?
Basically (...and to paraphrase many state laws), a person may pull his or her CCW once he or she has a reasonable expectation of needing that gun to prevent serious injury or death from occurring.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old July 24, 2011, 05:10 PM   #24
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Bug's are back up guns and shouldn't be carried without main, same for main no carry without back up.

LCP+LC9 is good ccw pair just like the g19 g26.

Ankle carry is good when you have iwb, because if you fall down you won't break both guns or something.
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Old July 24, 2011, 05:19 PM   #25
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Ankle holsters are silly.
Perhaps, but then don't wear one.

Personally I find one useful at times. Rather than carry speed strips for my J-Frame pocket revolver, I find it more convenient to carry a S&W 3913 as my, "Reload of choice". My personal choices are 1) belly band, 2) camera bag, ankle holster. I find that each of these have pluses and minuses. Then so does carrying a firearm have pluses and minuses.

I reckon there are folks that truly think their personal view of the world ought be the way for everyone. Perhaps the OP ran into one of those.

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