The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old October 6, 2010, 08:45 AM   #1
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
clearing the house

A thought occurred to me as I pondered if I ever had to clear the house during a break in. What would I do if I caught one BG, made him get on the floor while I call the police, and then heard his partner somewhere in the house. I concluded that if I ever am woken up in the wee hours the second thing I grab will be my handcuffs for just such an incident. I work in security, so I have them but wouldn't have ever thought to use them off duty before. They would certainly be a practical tool to utilize. Most people don't own a pair though, and I wondered what anyone' thoughts are on the subject.
EricReynolds is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 08:49 AM   #2
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,456
Duct tape
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 08:50 AM   #3
tighty whitey
Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2009
Location: Florida, near the mouse
Posts: 76
This is of course after you reached for your cell phone to call the police.
__________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. ~ Groucho Marx
tighty whitey is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 08:54 AM   #4
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,196
First, clearing your house yourself is not the greatest idea, and attempting to "detain" the intruder could be illegal in some areas, YMMV.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 08:55 AM   #5
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,960
Solo cuffing? Brrrr...

Sounds like the start of a wrasslin' match for your gun, and he has backup somewhere in your house? Are you sure you want to go there?
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 08:59 AM   #6
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,950
You could not pay me enough to get within arm's reach of a violent felon.

The beauty of the firearm is that it is a distance weapon. At contact range, the firearm loses its chief advantage -- that it allows the user to stay out of arm's reach.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 09:05 AM   #7
hardworker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2010
Posts: 820
If I were breaking into someone's house and they tried to handcuff me, me knowing I had backup hidden in the house, all hell would break loose when the homeowner tried to put the cuffs on.
hardworker is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 09:05 AM   #8
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,685
If there is one thing that the force-on-force training I've done has impressed upon me, it is that clearing a house is a real good way to get shot. One person clearing a house with 2 intruders and the odds go way up - especially if those guys are looking for confrontation (and the fact that they have broken into your occupied dwelling suggests they may not be shy about it).

I think my first thought would be to fort up, not clear the house. If I did get into the unenviable position of having to detain one intruder while another was still free, I think the best strategy is to look for a position of cover where I've got my back to wall and some cover in front of me and hold them at gunpoint. There just aren't a lot of good options there - which is why I wouldn't be clearing the house in the first place if I didn't absolutely have to.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 09:07 AM   #9
Ricky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2008
Location: N.California
Posts: 408
Clearing the house

I assume that if I'm home and someone forced their way into my house then they most likely intend to harm me and my family. If I come out of my bedroom and a BG isn't doing his very best to get to the nearest exit, well he's having a very bad day. I have no intention of trying to arrest anyone inside my home.
Ricky is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 09:36 AM   #10
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
Wow, there's a lot of negative feedback! Let me explain. First, if I'm home alone and heard something, I'd call the police and wait in my room. No need to play the hero. I'd only clear the house if my kids were home. Maybe I should've stated this in the original post, but my son's room is in the front of the house and mine is in the rear. I can't secure myself in my room and hope all goes well for him. I HAVE to do it if my kids are home. Second, I know the proper way to cuff someone as safe as possible. It is a distance weapon, and getting to close to your adversary does put you in a bad spot. That's why you make them lay on the floor on therir stomach with their arms extended before you even approach. I of course would call the police and if I thought the person was alone, I wouldn't even bother with the cuffs, I'd just await for the police to arrive. If I hear another person in the house though, what should I do then? Hope BG #2 doesn't find his way to my daughter's room? Turn my back on BG#1? Does anyone agree with what I'm saying?
EricReynolds is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 09:44 AM   #11
shootingblanks
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2009
Posts: 14
two words

Castle Doctrine

Ohio has adopted this and I certainly would not attempt to detain the individual. Multiple assailants increases propensity of harm to myself and family. I would take the appropriate measures necessary to protect my family first.
shootingblanks is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 09:50 AM   #12
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
Thank you Blanks. I'm not trying to John Wayne by detaining someone, but what's the alternative?
EricReynolds is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 10:00 AM   #13
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,860
Quote:
made him get on the floor
The castle doctrine in my state doesn't say anything about having to make the guy get on the floor. So, that is definitely NOT something I'll be doing in this situation if I were ever to find myself in it. If the bad guy is in my house and is on the floor, it's because he has been rendered incapable of anything more than that.

I'm not a cop. I don't have handcuffs. I don't know how to tie people up, nor do I care to learn. I don't always know where my duct tape is anyway. I guess if the guy just drops to the floor on his own, I'll have to deal with that in a non-lethal manner. But I don't see this happening unless you command someone to do this.
Skans is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 10:19 AM   #14
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
I hear you Skans, and that's kind of what this thread is asking. I wouldn't have cukks if I were in a different line of work. The question remains "what do you do if you have the guy stopped and you hear a second guy?" I don't want to turn my back on the guy I've stopped and I can't ignore the second. I'm sure this scenario has happened a time or two before and things never play out the way they do in the movies.
EricReynolds is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 10:45 AM   #15
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,960
"What if I paint myself into a corner I can't get out of?"

I think that I would hope that this scenario never happens.

You approach Guy #1 to cuff him. (Do you hang up on 911? Re-holster? Hold the phone in your teeth?)

Guy #1 makes a play for your gun and yells for help.

Guy #2 shows up and now you're on the bottom of a three-man pigpile with a loose gun somewhere in there.

Now what?
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 10:54 AM   #16
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
I simply can not imagine a circumstance wherein I would attempt to physically detain an intruder.

Assuming that I absolutely MUST clear the house, I would be much more likely to tell the guy to LEAVE.

Two guys break into a house, the odds are high that if one of them gets into a jam then the other is going to help. He's not very likely to just hide and wait for you.

Anyway, my instruction is more likely to be "Get out of here now!!" rather than "Get on the ground!"

"Get on the ground!", is for cops.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:03 AM   #17
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
That's a possible scenario, sure. What about this one: I make #1 lay on the floor as I call the police, holster, speakerphone, kneel on #1's back, cuff him, search out #2, hold him at bay until police arrive. Ideally, that's how I would intend for it to play out if there are 2 assailants. I know there are lot of variables and ways things could go wrong, but I could also see how things could go wrong if I did things differently too. What would be a better alternative than my scenario? If anyone has a safer plan, I want to hear it and it will become my new plan.
EricReynolds is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:13 AM   #18
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
That though had occurred to me as well Pete. My problem with that is, "how do I know he'll really leave?" If his partner is still in the house and I make him leave, might he exit my front door, run around the back and remain a very real threat? He'd be less of one cuffed. Let me make one thing clear, this isn't something I'd be comfortable doing and I've put cuffs on a lot of people. I would only resort to this if there were 2 people involved.
EricReynolds is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:20 AM   #19
divil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2009
Posts: 402
Quote:
What would be a better alternative than my scenario? If anyone has a safer plan, I want to hear it and it will become my new plan.
Tell him to leave. If he does not leave, shoot him and go secure the next room. If he does leave, let him go. If you attempt to detain him, you are telling him that you are not willing to shoot him.

Suppose he resists being cuffed, and he's too much for you. Now you have to shoot him anyway, but it's no longer self defence - he's just trying to escape and you're shooting him. It might be legal, but you might have some explaining to do having shot someone in the back at point blank range.

A gun is not a magical cooperation-inducing wand. It doesn't put you in control - it just gives you the option of killing the other guy. You can't necessarily use a gun to make someone else do what you want. What if they simply say "no, make me"?
divil is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:25 AM   #20
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Quote:
Assuming that I absolutely MUST clear the house, I would be much more likely to tell the guy to LEAVE.
This is my answer. When the guy bolts, and he will, you continue on to the kids' bedrooms to secure them. If BG #2 appears, wash, rinse, repeat as necessary ("Get the ____ out of my house, NOW!!"). If BG#1 returns, I'm going to presume he intends to inflict grave bodily harm upon me and mine (why else would he knowingly return to confront an armed homeowner?), and act accordingly. 'Nuff said.

Cheers.

Bob James
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:27 AM   #21
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
Point taken Divil. However, as previously stated, what if he goes but doesn't stay gone? Second, if he's alone and I have the drop on him, I'm calling the police. I'll tell him not to move until the police arrive. If he does run away, of course I'll let him leave, but I'm not telling him to leave. If I have the choice, I'd rather see him in jail.
EricReynolds is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:30 AM   #22
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
If anyone has a safer plan, I want to hear it and it will become my new plan.
I'm not meaning to be argumentative but I think your plan is the LEAST safe thing to do.

The BGs don't share your plan. The odds of getting ambushed/attacked are impossibly high. You don't have backup and Mr BG knows it. He also knows that he DOES have back up and he likely trusts that backup or he wouldn't be doing robberies with him.

The absolute last thing you should be doing is trying to cuff the bad guy. No way, no how. If you want to yell for him to get on the ground, fine. I still think it's a bad idea but do what you want.

Assuming he doesn't have a visible weapon, I would tell him to leave. If he leaves, great, if he doesn't, we're at a stalemate. I'm not shooting unless he's threatening. You can't go looking for his buddy unless he's gone or neutralized.

Again, I can't imagine a scenario where I would try to physically detain a bad guy. No way.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:32 AM   #23
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,960
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricReynolds
I make #1 lay on the floor as I call the police, holster, speakerphone, kneel on #1's back, cuff him, search out #2...
I just don't get why you assume #2 is going to obligingly remain stationary while you're occupied with cuffing #1.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:34 AM   #24
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,685
I think you are concentrating your energy in the wrong direction. Rather than think about how to get yourself out of a bad situation with no good solutions, I'd concentrate on figuring out how not to be in that situation.

I think Peetza has a good point that the goal here isn't really to detain bad guys, stop theft, or something similar. It is family safety. That is the primary goal and to the extent you are doing anything else, it should immediately serve that goal.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 6, 2010, 11:43 AM   #25
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,711
As I see it, the OP has pretty much created a "no win" situation for himself. He has a BG down on the floor, but there's another one somewhere in the house. In addition he apparently has two kids in different rooms elsewhere in the house. So what are some of the bad things that can happen.

[1] BG 1 resists as the OP approaches and attempts to secure him. And BG 2 is still somewhere in the house with the kids unprotected as the OP and BG 1 struggle.

[2] BG 2 ambushes and knocks out or otherwise incapacitates OP as OP is holding or attempting to secure BG 1. Now BG 1 and BG 2 have free reign of the house with the kids unprotected.

[3] While OP is busy with BG 1, BG 2 finds and gets the kids, and maybe uses them as hostages or a diversion.

It's pretty hard to figure a way to make anything good come out of trying to hold on to BG 1 while BG 2 is somewhere in the house.

A lot of course will depend on exactly how the house is laid out and exactly how the event unfolds. But my approach would be to forget about engaging a BG. As I see it, my first order of business would be to round up the kids, and any other authorized persons in the house and get everyone together in a reasonably defensible place of safety -- and call 911.

As I see it, my primary job is to protect the innocents in the house and not necessarily to deal with the BGs.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13028 seconds with 7 queries