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Old September 23, 2010, 04:56 PM   #1
cohoskip
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The Outlaw Josie Wales

I watched this old movie again the other day. I'm no expert on wheel guns, and I wonder what it was that Clint was carrying in that movie. When reloading, he replaced the whole cylinder...
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Old September 23, 2010, 04:58 PM   #2
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I believe he carries a Colt 1851 Army. but it's been awhile since I saw that movie. so I could be mistaken.
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Old September 23, 2010, 05:06 PM   #3
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No idea here either,But what a great Movie...
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Old September 23, 2010, 05:23 PM   #4
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http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title...aw_Josey_Wales

Colt walkers apparently as his pair of primary holster guns.
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Old September 23, 2010, 05:25 PM   #5
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In the movie "Gettysburg" the actor playing Colonel Chamberlain of the 20th Maine (Jeff Daniels) did the same thing -- and did it with some skill at that. I had no idea it could be done, and checked with the black powder site guys. And yes, that was the quickest way to reload a percussion revolver, but you have to know what you are doing or it will cause lots of problems. Most people of that era preferred to carry several revolvers. During Texas's independence, Texas Rangers often had five or six of them on themselves and their horses.

By the way, Samuel Colt called his invention a revolving pistol. I consider his opinion to be definitive: a revolver is a pistol.

Cordially, Jack
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Old September 23, 2010, 05:39 PM   #6
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i'm wondering if you actually mean josey wales or do you mean pale rider. i don't remember him replacing the cylinders in josey wales. in pale rider he used a 1858 remington which was designed to be able to change cylinders quickly. the colt type guns actually need to have a wedge removed that holds the barrel to the frame so you can remove the barrel and the remove the cylinder. the remington cylinder can be remove and a new one installed in a matter of seconds.
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Old September 23, 2010, 05:43 PM   #7
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He does it also in Pale Rider with the Remington 1858 New Army(cartridge conversion).
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Old September 23, 2010, 05:53 PM   #8
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Great Flick! Ought to buy that one!
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Old September 23, 2010, 05:57 PM   #9
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I'm a fan of that one, one of my favs, made me wanna go out and buy a couple of bp revolvers myself
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Old September 23, 2010, 06:47 PM   #10
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Recently went to the Camp Perry matches and the NRA had some of Clint's movie guns on display. Glare is from the glass case.

These two Colt Walker reproductions were used in "Josey Wales" and also in "True Grit".


Remington New Model Army used in "Pale Rider".


And of course, the most famous of all movie guns. The emblem on the grip is to John Milius, who wrote some of the famous lines in "Dirty Harry".
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Old September 23, 2010, 07:01 PM   #11
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There is a hazard with carrying loaded black powder cylinders.

It does give you a faster reload, but you better not fumble it and drop the cylinder. If it lands on a percussion cap, the cylinder will fire a round with enough force to easily kill.
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Old September 23, 2010, 07:11 PM   #12
Manco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyjames
in pale rider he used a 1858 remington which was designed to be able to change cylinders quickly. the colt type guns actually need to have a wedge removed that holds the barrel to the frame so you can remove the barrel and the remove the cylinder. the remington cylinder can be remove and a new one installed in a matter of seconds.
That's right, all of the parts in the Remington except for the cylinder are captive, and no tools are required to remove the cylinder. The theory is that you can swap cylinders about as quickly as most people can use a modern speedloader (and faster than portrayed in "Pale Rider"), and this certainly can be demonstrated with both the real vintage pistols and modern reproductions, as shown in the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3rj89cqQQ8

However, in actual practice even after one or two cylinders have been fired, it can become a lot harder and slower to swap cylinders, and the gun being hot doesn't make it any easier, as hickok45 shows in the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK6Qr7qmSvY#t=17m11s
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Old September 23, 2010, 07:55 PM   #13
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Dfaris wheel is correct. And dying aint much of a livin.
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Old September 23, 2010, 07:57 PM   #14
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After you take those six shots with a revolver, I would like to see someone try and reload a bp cylinder in combat. They normally had multiple cylinders with them. To go into a fight with one cylinder, a handful of balls, some lose primers and powder would be like bring six rounds, and a reloading press into battle with nowhere to bolt the press down. And the cylinders pop right out (mine takes a little work and the persuasion of a thick stick).
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Old September 23, 2010, 08:56 PM   #15
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In some cases, there were paper cartridges available for pistol rounds - at least, I've been informed of this. This would take care of the issue of pouring powder and then loading the ball, as the paper was soaked in nitrate and dried before being used to make the cartridge. Just smash the whole thing in the chamber with the loading lever. If the paper didn't break too easily, exposing the powder directly to the cap, then the cap should have ignited the paper, and thus, the powder. I don't know how common the paper cartridges for the revolvers were. This still leaves the issue of getting the caps on, though - it's tricky enough to get the things on one at a time without a capper. I can't imagine it was easy to get those little things on each nipple while guys are either shooting at you our charging with bayonets, knives, musket butts, fists, and sheer determination to kill the hell out of you......
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Old September 23, 2010, 09:02 PM   #16
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It does work, but it has drawback....

And I don't think it was used at all, or only rarely back in the cap and ball days. If swapping the cylinders were common, it would be a much more featured item in both the real and fictional histories.

Having and using a second gun was much, much more common, and much more likely.

The historical accounts indicate that, other than a very small number of "experts" (like Hickok) "two gun" gunslingers carried and used the second one as a fast reload, instead of both at once.
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Old September 23, 2010, 09:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
"two gun" gunslingers carried and used the second one as a fast reload, instead of both at once.
Hence the one armed deputy in "Unforgiven." "Clyde, you've only got one arm. Why do you need all those guns?" "Cause I don't want to get shot for lack of shooting back."

Sound wisdom.
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Old September 23, 2010, 09:59 PM   #18
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i think in "pale rider" the 1858 remington was a cartridge conversion and not a cap and ball revolver. you can still do a cartridge conversion on todays replicas.
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Old September 23, 2010, 10:28 PM   #19
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Here is a pic of a young Jesse James 'armed to the teeth' when he rode with Quantrill's Raiders. In more than one bio I've read on Jesse and other 'bushwhackers' it was not uncommon to carry multiple revolvers as well as some fastened to the pommel of the saddle.

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Old September 24, 2010, 02:07 AM   #20
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two Walkers????

Hey, in D-jet500 photo, I'm pretty sure that the revolver on the left is a version of one of the Dragoon model, note the loading lever lock and the different shaped and sized bolt notches, sort of an improved Walker, which is indeed, I believe what the rev on the right represents (Walker). They sure aren't identical.
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Old September 24, 2010, 02:47 AM   #21
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on ice
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Old September 24, 2010, 06:59 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
And I don't think it was used at all, or only rarely back in the cap and ball days. If swapping the cylinders were common, it would be a much more featured item in both the real and fictional histories.

Having and using a second gun was much, much more common, and much more likely.
This is correct. If you check the records from Colt and what few survive from Remington you well see that very few 'extra' cylinders were sold. Most of the ones that were sold ended up in cased sets.

Swapping cylinders in a cap and ball revolver is a 'Hollywood' phenomenon. It was common practice to carry as many revolvers as you could if you thought you needed the fire power.
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Old September 24, 2010, 07:45 AM   #23
Don P
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As the photos show the only way to swap out cylinders on the Colt Walkers would be to remove the barrel and frame as like in a open top. had to be the wrong movie Pale rider is the cylinder swap
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Old September 24, 2010, 08:08 AM   #24
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Quote:
There is a hazard with carrying loaded black powder cylinders.
True. There is also a hazard to fighting a war. And a greater hazard trying to fight a war with an empty gun. There have always been safety comprimises for the sake of firepower when fighting a war.
I don't know how "common" it was to change cylinders but the practice is well documented.
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Old September 24, 2010, 08:14 AM   #25
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rickyjames

Your post was interesting to me because I have never gotten smooth enough with my Remingtons to change out the cylinder as easily as Eastwood did in Pale Rider. I have practiced at it and I simply can not get the cylinder to go in without a little bit of yutzing.

Others in this forum have said that they are good with changing cylinders on their Remingtons and can do so as Eastwood did on a pistol they use for shooting and not modified. I don't dispute them, I simply can't match them.

It has always been my position that his pistol (the one used in that scene and perhaps only that scene) was modified so that he could do it as he does.

When you said "Remington which was designed to change cylinders quickly" did you mean that you are aware of some modification which was made to the very pistol that Eastwood used, or did you mean that Remingtons cylinder change quickly simply because of the design of the pistol? (Which, of course is true.)
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