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Old October 5, 2010, 04:47 PM   #51
Double Naught Spy
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At George Mason University (close to my house) there are over 100 combat veterans. So a combat Vet, over 21, with a state CCW, is not "mature" enough to carry?
Of course they may be, and so too are they mature enough to realize they must abide by the rules of the college.

Colleges prefer not to have all sorts of rules sets for different categories of students as it makes a complicated situation of managing the student population much more difficult. Because of the drinkng age issue, there are schools that don't allow for the possession or consumption of alcohol on campus by any students, regardless of age.
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Old October 5, 2010, 06:18 PM   #52
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Old October 5, 2010, 06:26 PM   #53
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Tamara,

A 21 year old in the military is in a situation where his sergeant is watching over him. He does not get sent out on his own. Even shave-tails are watched over by sergeants.

I did not say a 21 year old was mature enough to “drive a squad car”. I don’t believe a 21 year old is ready to be a cop on his own. It takes maturity to be a good cop.

Males take a long time to grow up. I know; I was there.
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Old October 5, 2010, 06:37 PM   #54
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A 21-year-old person (even a lowly male!) is old enough to apply for and receive a carry permit in all but one state that issues them.

Yet somehow, when that same 21-year-old adult male with a state-issued carry permit walks onto college campus, he loses several dozen IQ points, and becomes capable only of drooling down his chin, barfing all over his classmates and falling in a drunken stupor against the woman he was date-raping.

Dayumn. Who knew going to college made people that stupid?

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Old October 5, 2010, 07:35 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by pax
A 21-year-old person (even a lowly male!) is old enough to apply for and receive a carry permit in all but one state that issues them.

Yet somehow, when that same 21-year-old adult male with a state-issued carry permit walks onto college campus, he loses several dozen IQ points, and becomes capable only of drooling down his chin, barfing all over his classmates and falling in a drunken stupor against the woman he was date-raping.
And whose bright idea was it to let them drive?!?

I've always had a gun. At least since I was about 13. I did a lot of that stupid college stuff. But, as stupid as I was, I never mixed guns and partying. And I was pretty stupid.
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Old October 5, 2010, 07:52 PM   #56
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As a 21 year-old college student with a CPL I am offended by some of these posts! JK, some are just making me shake my head.

I like Glenn's posts, he has it right on. I think DNS sums up the college's viewpoint pretty well, too. For a lot of colleges it does come down to liability. If someone gets shot on campus they can say "Well we told them they couldn't do it!". We all know this is ridiculous but if shootings did happen on campuses and CPLs were allowed, we all know what the next thing out of some peoples' mouths would be: "Well maybe if they didn't let kids just bring guns into the mix of drugs, hormones, and alcohol we wouldn't have this problem!" That argument is just to easy to make for the Headline-attention-spanned crowd.

I also don't think there is an "age" of maturity. The connotation that a "xx-year old is old enough to do blank isn't old enough to other blank?" is just a fallacy within a fallacy. Go to a gun show, look at the old guys that muzzle sweep everyone, yell loudly about "WOMAN CALIBER PLASTIC GUNS" and wear CCW badges. Are THEY mature enough to carry a firearm? I don't think that's even the question at hand, the question at hand is: do they have a right to carry a firearm? The answer to that, whether a person likes it or not is "until they have proven otherwise, yes, they do have a right to a firearm".

Now how does this apply to college campuses? Well, it would still be illegal to consume alcohol and carry your sidearm. It would still be illegal to be high and carry your sidearm. It would still be illegal to shoot someone accidentally or without justification. It would still be illegal to be a felon (and certain misdemeanors) and posses a firearm. Allowing carry on college campuses won't change that. As Glenn alludes to, it will only allow people that already carry everywhere else to carry on campus. That is why those laws I mentioned above exist, because if they have broken those laws then they aren't responsible enough to carry everywhere else. In other words: there are ways the law can find out if someone is responsible, it is called a criminal history. And we cannot deprive rights based on assumptions and stereotypes.

Also sorry to jump in late in the conversation here, I've been following it and it's a good one.
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Old October 5, 2010, 08:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayInTx
A 21 year old in the military is in a situation where his sergeant is watching over him.
A 21-year-old in the military often IS a sergeant, and is watching over five or ten other guys.
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Old October 5, 2010, 09:30 PM   #58
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Wow!

What a can of worms I opened with this thread.

I see merit to arguments on both sides. Here in Alabama, one can receive a CCW in minutes. Go to local sheriffs office; background check; picture taken; pay your $20 and you're good to go. No instruction on safety, firearms handling, situational "shoot, don't shoot" discussion, or target shooting qualifying.

I'm all for any legal citizen having the right to obtain their CCP.
But, I would very much like to see AL enact some kind of class instruction and range qualification (fat chance of that). Some states do not recognize Alabama CCP because of the fact that their is no qualification other than not being a criminal.

Dr. Meyer, and others, have raised some very valid issues concerning training, or the lack thereof, of college age persons, or any age for that matter. Many of the college students in my town have firearms and usually keep them in their vehicles, much to the delight of car burglars. I read police reports everyday in the local paper and not a week goes by without at least one pistol being stolen from a vehicle. (fodder for a different thread). None of these students, that I know of, have had any training.

I own and manage student housing so I have close interactions with students daily. The overwhelming majority of them, by the time they reach 21yo, are quite mature and responsible. Now 18, 19, they've got some mistakes to make and growing up to do, just like we all did. But, don't sell them short on maturity at 21.

We're all basically of the same frame of mind here. We hold fast and strong to our 2nd amendment rights. We fear those who would love to take that right from us. I must err on the side of one having the opportunity to defend themself and others in a college setting. Certainly it is flawed and fraught with possible nightmare scenarios (I've heard reference to Johnny accidently shooting Suzy cheerleader). But, I'd rather they have the chance to defend themselves in the admittedly unlikely event of a crazed shooter(s) as opposed to resorting to throwing books and pencils at them...
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Old October 5, 2010, 11:40 PM   #59
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What's a "shave - tail"?
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Old October 5, 2010, 11:46 PM   #60
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The most current trend in active shooter training is for the first 3-4 officers on scene, regardless of jurisdiction, to aggressively enter the target and pursue the threat. There are even some that advocate the lone wolf philosophy, but think that it would most certainly take a special officer to do that remotely safely.

In my area, active shooter training is quite popular, and in most cases is very well put on.
This post warms my heart. It sounds like LE is learning that CYA policies don't always work best.

I sort of remember a nursing home shooting that was cut short by a police officer. If I remember correctly he was the first responder and just waded right in and shot the shooter. I think he was also shot. You just have to love someone who is willing to put their life and career on the line. We can't go through our lives trying to avoid mistakes at all costs. Inaction is a mistake too.
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Old October 5, 2010, 11:49 PM   #61
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A shave tail is a second lieutenant or an ensign in the sea services, the lowest ranking officer, usually not much older than 23 or 24.

I'm 22 and am a National Guard Sergeant, a combat vet, and a state CCW holder and my campus says that I can leave my piece locked in my truck while in my class. I have to ask myself what good it does there.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the drunken frat-boy stereotype, heck, I contribute to it on Gamedays, but I am of the opinion that the issue of campus concealed carry, and more wide ranging concealed carry is one that needs to be addressed.

How some ever, something to think about in a VT style scenario in which a bunch of students respond with thier concealed pieces is that the first responders, who by now are trained to attack active shooters with aggressive patrolling, now have multiple armned citizens instead of the one psycho with an AK or whatever.
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Old October 6, 2010, 06:55 AM   #62
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What's a "shave - tail"?
The term is actually "Shaved Tail"

Originally it designated a mule in the army that had just been broken in, and the idea was everyone would know to be careful of that mule while his tail hair was growing back.

By the time it grew back, it would be a seasoned veteran and therefore reliable.

As SPEMack618 referenced, they often were used to designate a "butter bar" officer, an Ensign or 2nd Lieutenant (their collar devices are brass, hence, butter bar).

Butter bars and shaved tails were especially useful in the Navy when working on the gyroscopic compasses, and you needed a tube of relative bearing grease. Trouble is, . . . they just seemed to never come up with it.

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Old October 6, 2010, 09:33 AM   #63
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When a hanging around the TOC, it always made me chuckle when a butter bar was sent after a box of grid squares. Or told that a patrol had found a large pile of St-1s and needed an officer to look at them before they destroyed them in place.
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Old October 6, 2010, 11:21 AM   #64
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Not to pull the thread away from college students and second lieutenants (and buck sergeants), but why do you suppose there have not been more foreign (as opposed to domestic) terrorism incidents in this country? Especially given the easy availability of firearms and the fact that Americans are prone to congregate in large crowds at everything from soccer fields, churches, to football stadiums. There certainly have been plenty of such incidents in Iraq and all the nearby friendly territories. Is it perhaps because quicker results are expected? Or has the big impersonal federal govenment been preventing things from coming to pass?
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Old October 6, 2010, 11:27 AM   #65
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Or has the big impersonal federal govenment been preventing things from coming to pass?
Probably this. There have been a LOT of uncovered plots, one major in LA that I can think of, and I'm sure countless more that we will never know about because they are national security secrets. But remember the failed panty-bomber over Detroit. He should have been caught a long time ago and the only reason it didn't work was cuz he screwed up on the plane.

I also think it has something to do with the fact that the last time it happened, America destroyed two countries. And one was because "just in case they are there, too".
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Old October 6, 2010, 11:28 AM   #66
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I fully believe that the lack of foreign funded, inspired, led, and carried out attacks in the continental United States is proof that in some shape or fashion, the Global War on Terror is netting some tangible results.

It's pretty hard to wage war against the infidel on his home turf, if you are being chased up and down the Afghani-Paki boarder or through the streets of Tikrit by guys in North Face jackets and 19 year old National Guardsmen.

Now, this isn't a scientific empirical fact by any means, but it's just some of my postulating.
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Old October 6, 2010, 07:35 PM   #67
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I would very much like to see AL enact some kind of class instruction and range qualification
And I believe that most of us would not. Despite some of your misgivings, our system is working fine.

I suppose you would like our permit fee to be $150 a year, too?
Quote:
their is no qualification other than not being a criminal.
And why is this not sufficient for you?
Quote:
Some states do not recognize Alabama CCP because of the fact that their is no qualification
Some states do not recognize any other state's CCP, or issue one themselves. How are you going to persuade them if we had mandatory training/qualification?
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Old October 7, 2010, 07:09 AM   #68
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I am tempted to suggest that to a suicidal terrorist, though they probably aren't all suicidal, the possibility that every other person might be carrying a weapon would not make him much less likely to attempt something, at least if we're still talking about soft targets. There was even some fool (but not a terrorist) that shot up the local police station here in western Fairfax County, Virginia, three or four years ago, and I wouldn't call a police station a soft target. For that matter, the police in Iraq are targeted with some frequency.

Doesn't exactly make you feel better, does it?
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Old October 7, 2010, 08:17 AM   #69
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I fully believe that the lack of foreign funded, inspired, led, and carried out attacks in the continental United States is proof that in some shape or fashion, the Global War on Terror is netting some tangible results.

It's pretty hard to wage war against the infidel on his home turf, if you are being chased up and down the Afghani-Paki boarder or through the streets of Tikrit by guys in North Face jackets and 19 year old National Guardsmen.
Attacks do not have to be foreign funded. No doubt there are already terrorists in the US waiting to be told to act. They have regular jobs like the rest of us and can buy things like guns and ammonium nitrate or other materials just like the rest of us, funded domestically via employment.
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Old October 7, 2010, 08:41 AM   #70
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A 21-year-old person (even a lowly male!) is old enough to apply for and receive a carry permit in all but one state that issues them.

Yet somehow, when that same 21-year-old adult male with a state-issued carry permit walks onto college campus, he loses several dozen IQ points, and becomes capable only of drooling down his chin, barfing all over his classmates and falling in a drunken stupor against the woman he was date-raping.

Dayumn. Who knew going to college made people that stupid?

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Sorry it was an easy joke. I'll sit down now.
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Old October 7, 2010, 10:49 AM   #71
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Old October 7, 2010, 11:49 AM   #72
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I think it's pretty clear to me that the terrorists know that these gun free zones are "soft targets" and that's why they have attacked them. Just look at all the attacks and attempted attacks in the states with the strictest gun laws, like New York City vs places where citizens are allowed to be armed. If some terrorist tried to blow himself up any of that in Texas he'd be shot before he had the chance to press the detonator. Just goes to show that even the terrorists are afraid of armed citizens.
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Old October 7, 2010, 12:40 PM   #73
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That doesn't follow. Would someone trying to fly a plane into the Alamo (can't think of any other place in Texas) be shot down before he had a chance? My point earlier is that if the target is in fact "soft," then it doesn't matter how many are carrying guns, given that such things happen to police stations, even in the US.
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Old October 7, 2010, 01:20 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray33
If some terrorist tried to blow himself up any of that in Texas he'd be shot before he had the chance to press the detonator.
They usually don't announce their intentions before going all 'splodey.

Lots of people carry guns in Israel, too, but a gun is a pretty narrow solution for a specific set of problems. A .38 in the pocket isn't going to stop someone wearing Semtex Underoos if you don't know they're wearing them.
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Old October 7, 2010, 01:57 PM   #75
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How about a compromise for college campuses? If you live off campus and have a valid CCH permit then you can carry. However, guns are not allowed in college dorms, or college controlled housing. That helps get rid of the storage/security issue to some degree, and minimizes 2nd ammendment complaints.

We have to look at more than campuses to help with this problem though. In NC it is illegal to carry in to any place that charges admission or parades. That means everything from your local movie theatre, or county fair, to the yearly Christmas parade is a no CCH zone.

With other restrictions in place nearly every hospital, restaurant, every bit of state property, and federal property is a no CCH zone. Any educational facility of any type is also supposed to be a no CCH zone.

I think if a person goes through the required training, and passes the stringent back ground checks required, in a state like NC they should be able to carry nearly anywhere in the state. There is very little reason for a well trained citizen to be denied their rkba for self defense.

I know a J-frame isn't going to take out a handfull of AK wielding Jihadis. However, a nice seven shot Taurus 817 might help me get my wife and kid to cover. It might only serve as a distraction long enough fo my wife and kid to get away while I'm being murdered. If they survive that is good enough for me.

A good J-frame with the right ammo might have helped students at VT. It might have helped the students at UNC when a guy in a Ford Explorer drove in to a crowded pedestrian area and started running people down.

More often than not these attacks are one or two people counting on the element of suprise. One or two people with J frames (or semi-autos) could probably bring them to an end much quicker.
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