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Old October 3, 2010, 10:31 AM   #1
tulsamal
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Legal issues with "using" a SBR?

I don't currently own any NFA items. I'm 48, ex-Army, long time shooter and gun collector. I have my CCW and live in OK.

I've heard for years that it was a very bad idea legally to get a legal full auto "anything" and then use it for personal defense. Even if you didn't get any criminal charges, the civil case would be daunting. So if you collect machine guns.... keep something else to defend your castle.

I'm having a custom AR-15 pistol built right now. I'm going to enjoy it, I'm sure since it will give me a couple of my long term goals. And under OK law, it will be legal to keep in a car or truck since it will be covered by my CCW. A loaded rifle or shotgun in OK is verboten, even a rifle or shotgun that is unloaded but has loaded mags "within reach." So I can carry my normal CCW and have a loaded AR-15 pistol nearby that uses the same caliber and same magazines.

But the lure of the SBR is strong. I've been thinking about filling out the paperwork and changing over the new pistol. But there are problems with that. I came here for some answers!

Strike number one is that it would kill the OK legal advantage. Wouldn't be legal to carry loaded or with loaded mags in a vehicle. I _might_ be able to live with that since I can always use something else. But then that got me thinking about my statement about about not using a legal full auto for "serious social use." What do NFA enthusiasts say about SBR's for such things? Do people buy them and register them but then only use them for shooting games and the range?

Thanks,

Gregg
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Old October 3, 2010, 11:47 AM   #2
oldcspsarge
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IF you have a lawfully registered NFA firearm and use it in a lawful shooting, there is no issue what so ever.

On the civil side, some ambulance chasing attorney of questionable parentage MAY try and say you thought you were SWAT/Rambo/Navy SEAL Commando and purposefully bought it to be "More Lethal".....but deadly force is deadly force.

Any time you use or simply deploy a firearm, you are putting EVERYTHING you own and cherish at risk. Being able to explain it to 12 rather than being carried by your six best friends is the desired outcome.
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Old October 3, 2010, 11:59 AM   #3
Bartholomew Roberts
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From a legal perspective, there has been research done by TFL's own Glenn E. Meyers that suggests the type of weapon used in a defensive shooting can negatively affect you both in terms of getting a guilty verdict and getting a higher sentence with that verdict.

I can't find the link at the moment; but I bet if you PM him he can send it to you.

Of course that assumes a shooting where the facts are unclear enough that it goes to a jury. If you use the SBR to break up a terrorist attack on the local mall, you will be all right. If it turns out your SBR is used in a road rage disagreement where the loving and caring father of 4 tries to tune you up with a tire iron, you might have a big problem.
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Old October 3, 2010, 04:31 PM   #4
Austin Cowart
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my 2 cents

You can make the same argument with using a suppressor during a home invasion... I have them on just about everything I own for the simple reason that should I need to use one my ear drums arnt going to be bleeding after a double tap. Legally im in the clear but will I be labeled as a want to be assassin or a law abiding citizen defending his home, property, and loved ones at the same time protecting his hearing? well with this liberal country im sure you can guess but I don’t give a crap about what people think and ill be more than happy to standup for myself in court. But then again thank god for Texas finally giving us the castle doctrine.
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Old October 3, 2010, 06:23 PM   #5
Nnobby45
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Quote:
IF you have a lawfully registered NFA firearm and use it in a lawful shooting, there is no issue what so ever.
Unless the DA or opposing civil attorneys decide to make it one. I come from a gambling state, Nevada, but I don't like the odds that it wouldn't be used against you. Wouldn't take odds on whether they'd prevail as a result, either.

And just because the effect it might have on the jury may be unmeasurable (except to the jury), that doesn't mean it isn't there.
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Old October 3, 2010, 07:10 PM   #6
tulsamal
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Quote:
You can make the same argument with using a suppressor during a home invasion..
Well..... I think I would rather be the defendant who was using a suppressor rather than a machine gun. A good attorney could convince more juries that the suppressor didn't make the gun "more deadly" but primarily protected the user. On the other hand, a jury might see a machine gun as more deadly than the same gun that was semi only.

Honestly, I don't consider it a big issue in the case of a full auto firearm. I just wouldn't use such a thing in the normal course of events. Now if it was TEOTWAWKI, sure. But I wasn't sure how NFA people viewed SBR's in this context. Seems like _less_ of an issue but still.... I just wondered if I was going to be turning my AR into basically a range toy.

Gregg
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Old October 3, 2010, 09:14 PM   #7
Gary L. Griffiths
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Recommend you look up and read this:

Quote:
"F*** you and your automatic rifle!" The Gary Fadden incident - The Ayoob files American Handgunner, March-April, 2004 by Massad Ayoob
In short, Gary Fadden, a salesman for H&K, was prosecuted for shooting a biker attacking him and his girlfriend with a knife, almost solely because he used a Ruger automatic rifle, putting six rounds into his attacker.

Had he used a semi-auto, it is doubtful charges would have been filed.

Caveat Emptor!
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Old October 4, 2010, 05:26 AM   #8
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http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

Very good example of one using NFA weapon(among others) to defend his homestead. There is also a bit in there about what Mr. Beckwith had to go through after the incident. Not fun.

But if it was me, and if the paperwork was all there, I wouldn't hesitate to use my NFA weapon to defend myself and/or loved ones. Increase your chance at surviving the incident, worry about the legal repercussions when you're still alive at the end of it all. One threat at a time, my friend.



-One man's opinion,
Chris

Last edited by MisterWhite; October 4, 2010 at 05:40 AM.
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Old October 4, 2010, 05:40 AM   #9
therealdeal
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http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html

remember+one point to consider since you're undecided: in the future the law might change not in your favor.

*you'll probably at least be able to keep it in your home even if it ever gets banned someday due to grandfather clause
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Old October 4, 2010, 06:29 AM   #10
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If you own a NFA weapon and it is the best weapon you own or have timely access to during a crisis for self defense, then that is the weapon you should be using. Your first job is to survive the incident.

If you are prosecuted, the gun and ammo will undoubtedly become an issue at trial. Even Harold Fish's simple revolver and 10mm ammo were an issue at trial originally. So the issue will come up.
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Old October 4, 2010, 09:26 AM   #11
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My home D carbine is an 11.5" SBR. Any weapon you pick could be an issue if someone wants to paint it in a bad light. So I just pick the best weapon for me, and I don't worry about it.
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Old October 4, 2010, 09:54 AM   #12
RWBlue01
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Quote:
IF you have a lawfully registered NFA firearm and use it in a lawful shooting, there is no issue what so ever.

On the civil side, some ambulance chasing attorney of questionable parentage MAY try and say you thought you were SWAT/Rambo/Navy SEAL Commando and purposefully bought it to be "More Lethal".....but deadly force is deadly force.

Any time you use or simply deploy a firearm, you are putting EVERYTHING you own and cherish at risk. Being able to explain it to 12 rather than being carried by your six best friends is the desired outcome.
Very well put AND the first post. +1


For me, I decided that my NFA items don't give me a significant advantage in a normal fight. If this was a true SHTF, that might change.
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Old October 4, 2010, 04:58 PM   #13
kalstrand
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Recheck your Oklahoma self defense act. In Ok if you have a CCW you can legally carry a rifle or shotgun with a loaded magazine in your vehicle. You can't have a round in the chamber of a rifle or shotgun however. You might also look more closely at the at pistol. There has been some discussion on the Oklahoma shooters forums whether an ar pistol actually qualifies to be carried as a pistol.
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Old October 7, 2010, 06:04 PM   #14
medalguy
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Of course everyone overlooked the fact that generally a weapon used in a shooting will be taken by the police for testing. I really, REALLY don't want to lose any of my NFA guns for an extended period of time!
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Old October 7, 2010, 07:01 PM   #15
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
Of course everyone overlooked the fact that generally a weapon used in a shooting will be taken by the police for testing. I really, REALLY don't want to lose any of my NFA guns for an extended period of time!
Nobody wants to lose a weapon, but losing a weapon is cheap compared to losing your life or losing a loved one. The notion of it being confiscated would be the least of my worries.
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Old October 7, 2010, 10:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Nobody wants to lose a weapon, but losing a weapon is cheap compared to losing your life or losing a loved one. The notion of it being confiscated would be the least of my worries.
Exactly, if you're in a situation where you have to shoot someone you want the best you have available.

Why are you worried only about losing the NFA guns? What about the non NFA gun you would use? Do you really want to lose your $800 1911? Perhaps one should use a Jennings or a baseball bat for defense since their loss will not be as harshly felt economically.

Needlessly cheaping out on a defensive gun makes as much sense as a skydiver cheaping out on his reserve parachute. If all you can afford is a single shot shotgun, fine, but if you're buying $1,500 AR's then you need to make sure you have something better.
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Old October 11, 2010, 09:35 AM   #17
demigod
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Agreed on the weapon seizure. Losing your weapon for a little while is the least of concerns. Weapons get lost... Big Deal. They'll make more. I keep a couple of SBRs. If one got taken temporarily, bid deal!
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Old October 13, 2010, 08:13 PM   #18
Bodyarmorguy
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Home defense rifle is a Colt 6933 11.5" AR15, obviously a NFA weapon. It is augmented by a AAC M4-1000 supressor, also obviously a NFA device. My rational is that the SBR with supressor is about the same length as a traditional 16" gun and easily maneuverable in the house. Should I have to fire in the enclosed environment, the supressor may spare me some permanent hearing damage.
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Old October 14, 2010, 09:13 PM   #19
threecharley
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In Oklahoma the max CCW caliber you can carry is 44mag. anything bigger is illeagle!
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Old October 26, 2010, 10:04 AM   #20
tulsamal
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Quote:
In Oklahoma the max CCW caliber you can carry is 44mag. anything bigger is illeagle!
I'm not sure why you threw that in there. Back when I took my CCW class, the maximum was .45. But that's "bullet diameter." I find it annoying actually since I would like to have a .480 Alaskan in my truck..... but that's not really the point in this context. "Bullet length" or foot pounds of energy, etc, isn't regulated.

Quote:
Recheck your Oklahoma self defense act. In Ok if you have a CCW you can legally carry a rifle or shotgun with a loaded magazine in your vehicle. You can't have a round in the chamber of a rifle or shotgun however. You might also look more closely at the at pistol. There has been some discussion on the Oklahoma shooters forums whether an ar pistol actually qualifies to be carried as a pistol.
OK, I would really like to dig up the truth right here. This is the second time I've seen this. I was looking at an Appleseed shoot being held locally and they were listing out possible laws people should be aware of. And they said loaded magazines for a rifle in the car were OK if you have a CCW. They provided a hot link to the law. Which I went and read. Including every other law that was linked. The linked law said it was legal to have loaded handguns in your car when you have a CCW. I read it back and forth and that's all I could see. I'm rarely happy about being wrong but I really hope that I am. Can somebody actually provide me with a link to the OK law in this case? Please?!

And I don't get the last sentence at all. An AR pistol or an AK pistol or any other kind of pistol is still a handgun. I wouldn't want to try carrying one under my coat but it sure as heck should be legal to carry loaded in my car. It should be covered by my CCW. I don't see how that can be in doubt? IMO, that could only be an issue if some OK law actually "defined a handgun" in a different way than the Federal definition. I think it is Michigan that does that but I've never heard of OK doing it?

Gregg
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Old October 26, 2010, 10:14 AM   #21
tulsamal
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http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...?CiteID=440210

Quote:
a rifle or shotgun may be transported clip or magazine loaded and not chamber loaded when transported in an exterior locked compartment of the vehicle or trunk of the vehicle or in the interior compartment of the vehicle notwithstanding the provisions of Section 1289.7 of this title when the person is in possession of a valid handgun license pursuant to the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act.
This section is dated 2003 and 2004. So maybe this was changed after I got my permit? News to me but seems like happy news!

Gregg
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Old October 29, 2010, 09:27 AM   #22
silvercorvette
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I own a few machine guns the cheapest of which is $7,000. If you are involved in a shooting the police usually collect the gun for evidence. Do you want your gun to be stored for a undetermined length of time under less the ideal conditions? I would rather use an easily replaceable gun.

By the way in some cases they have been know to scratch case ID numbers into the gun metal, do you want your expensive machine gun permanently disfigured?
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Old October 29, 2010, 10:00 AM   #23
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I just read all the other posts, and a Remington $300 870 would do the job equally as well if not better than my $30,000 Thompson. I can go out and replace my Remington a lot easier than the Thompson and I don't care if someone uses a vibrating engraving tool to etch a case number into my Remington. I also own a 9MM and a .22 caliber calico semi-autos (both with 100 round magazines) I would choose the 9MM calico if the Remington was not handy.
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Old October 29, 2010, 11:03 AM   #24
demigod
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Quote:
I would rather use an easily replaceable gun.
I agree to a certain extent that using a Machine gun wouldn't be wise for several reasons. On the other hand, I don't get this romantic attachment to an SBR or non-NFA gun.

All that stuff is easily replaced relative to surviving a shooting. I mean.. they're just guns! It's not like they're perishable items. And they aren't going to store them in a salt water bath or something.

My local PD puts trigger tags on the gun and bags the pistols. And their property room is nice!
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Old October 29, 2010, 12:00 PM   #25
silvercorvette
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I have seen and heard of mutilation of fire arms by law enforcement using a vibrating marker tool, I did a google search but couldn't find any examples. Maybe I used the wrong search words but there is no doubt it happened because I have seen it.

I am a retired cop and when I was injured on the job I had to turn in my guns because I was unable to do my yearly qualification. I was very reluctant to turn in my personal guns to my own department but I oiled them and packed them as well as I could and when I got them back they were in the same condition they were when I surrendered them. But these guns were not part of evidence of a shooting, who knows what would have happened under different circumstances.
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