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Old October 3, 2010, 08:18 PM   #26
therealdeal
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No. In MI (and I assume the state OP is referring to), in this situation, if you respond with force, you will be charged with murder. You have no legal right to be where you are (because you are armed) and thus any actions you take will not be treated as a justifiable homicide. This is the real world, where actions have consequences and heroes don't exist. The only reason to open yourself up to the criminal and civil liabilities of this is if your life is directly threatened. Unless you want to be a test case. There is absolutely no reason to leave your fortified area to save the damsels in distress.
SEFNER,

what makes you so vigilant and understanding of LIFE. no offense, but I don't take what you say as the Gospel. read my post. I never said one thing about being a hero or leaving the room, so stop jumping on the bandwagon because I went down in flames on the other thread. I don't care if I am on mars or in michigan or a taxi driver for venus. If a hospital gets locked down and the PA says there is a loose gunman inside and a nurse gets killed right down the hall(on the same floor as I said), I will not hesitate in using deadly force whether you like it or not. As far as being bruce willis and looking for this guy; I never said that, so keep your visions to yourself please.

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This is the real world, where actions have consequences and heroes don't exist.
you might be on the real world, but the world I live in does have heroes and I can name many.
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Old October 3, 2010, 08:30 PM   #27
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I wish I had the actual link, but I was reading posts from 2006 last night or the night before(someone posted the link on a recent thread). It was from the 1st half of 2006 I think. Pax, you were on it but thats the only name I remember. It amazes me how many of the posts said they would unarm the gunman if they got robbed at gunpoint. the scenario was a man walking into his storage unit to find a young man in a ski mask pointing a 9mm at him. Everybody and his brother ripping him for turning around when the robber made him at gunpoint in the storage garage(robber and man- noone else). If the poor guy had fought back there is a very good chance he would've died right there and then, yet everyone thought he was wrong because he walked away alive. Not everything is taught in class, I assure you. if you want the link I'll find it. just because someone is willing to use a weapon on the internet, that doesn't mean he is triggerhappy. Enough said, I stepped in it on that other thread but threads and the internet can be as unpredictable as a jury.
ps if you were on other thread-my bank is a family bank in mass; we have none in virginia where we live. just the way we do it. only time I go insdie is because I have to to open each baby's acct(we do it anyways even though they'll end up having a virginia bank).
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Old October 3, 2010, 08:32 PM   #28
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My local hospital isn't posted, and my wife and I routinely carry in there when we have to go there. In the scenario you state, I would stay in the room. I do NOT know the layout of the hospital, I am NOT in a uniform or wearing armor, the staff do NOT know me from Adam, and I have NO way to coordinate my efforts with any hospital, city state or county responders. Bad juju.
I'll stay in the room until its all over with.

Oh, sorry, in ninja-speak, "I'll assume a localized defensive perimeter, and vigorously pursue the defense of myself and my loved ones within that deliniated space, at all costs!"
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Old October 3, 2010, 09:05 PM   #29
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armored man makes a good point that I didn't think of: should you leave the confines of a safe area, there is too much you don't know.

Are those gunshots the shooter or the SWAT team? If it's the SWAT team I wouldn't want to come around the corner with a firearm. If someone sees you in the halls with a firearm, they may contact authorities with your description and you may be in for an unpleasant surprise when the room you are in is "cleared".

Is that guy running around with a gun the shooter or is he the undercover officor that was guarding the felon a few rooms over with a radio in contact with the guys on the ground?

Very good point, armored, there is too much that is not known.

I'd also like to join the growing number of posters saying that the hospital (minus the guard) handled it poorly. The last thing you want in a hospital or a situation like this are tons of people sprinting towards exits in a panic. Not that that's what happened, but the point is that panic and over-reaction play into the shooter's hand, not the innocent peoples'.

Can anyone in the area find out if the hospital has re-evaluated its security plans?
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Old October 3, 2010, 09:22 PM   #30
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say nothing, do nothing unless/until you and yours are threatened.
+1
i'm a physician and carry concealed, despite the fact the the hospital has those "no handgun" signs at all the entrances.
we had an issue with a newborn gone missing and have a similar lock down code (pink). however, no hospital i've ever worked in, would announce the specific threat. doing that would only cause panic among the patients and alert the BG you're on to them.
the OP scenario is interesting, but, sheer fantasy.
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Old October 3, 2010, 09:57 PM   #31
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however, no hospital i've ever worked in, would announce the specific threat. doing that would only cause panic among the patients and alert the BG you're on to them.
Those were mine, and my wife's thoughts, as well. The actual threat was announced, none the less.


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Half mile? I'm sure anywhere in SLC in a half mile radius there are tons of guns. What was the guy gonna do, take pot shots from 900 yards? What about the other buildings in the area? Did the college get locked down too?
Yea... the 'person of interest' was closer to a National Guard Armory, than the hospital. And the person that reported the 'man with a gun' was at a Jewish Center of some kind (can't remember if it's an actual church, or some kind of counseling / teaching center). The Jewish Center locked down for a short time, but I can't find any evidence of any other buildings taking more action than heightened security (and that's a guess). Even the VA hospital and out-buildings (very close to the armory) didn't lock down in the slightest. The only place that seemed to respond much, was the University. Campus police helped with the search. (From what I understand, hospital security is its own entity, but works with campus police.)

I think the phantom 'man with a gun' in the parking garage made them think they had him located, and saw the hospital as his target.


Quote:
The situation you've described is a bunch of people overreacting and, in turn, causing a bunch of other people to overreact, which, IMO, validates the "get down, stay put" plan.
Yep. A lot of security protocols were ignored, or violated. I'm sure there will be some fallout from this incident.
Like you, I too, think it helps reinforce the position of:
Let the hospital staff do what they're trained to. Stay put. Stay vigilant. Don't do anything stupid.
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Old October 4, 2010, 05:20 AM   #32
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Stay put. Stay vigilant. Don't do anything stupid.
Untold lives could have been saved throughout the millenia by heeding this advise.
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Old October 4, 2010, 05:30 AM   #33
Tamara
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Originally Posted by FrankenMauser
And the person that reported the 'man with a gun' was at a Jewish Center of some kind (can't remember if it's an actual church, or some kind of counseling / teaching center). The Jewish Center locked down for a short time, but I can't find any evidence of any other buildings taking more action than heightened security (and that's a guess).
Ever since Buford Furrow, Jewish community centers and synagogues have had a case of the 'noids about lone guys in camo with guns. Not that I necessarily blame them.

In new, jumpy America, we tend to spot gunmen and terrorists even more frequently than our grandparents spotted Nazi sub periscopes...
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Old October 4, 2010, 08:10 AM   #34
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In new, jumpy America, we tend to spot gunmen and terrorists even more frequently than our grandparents spotted Nazi sub periscopes...
Ain't that the truth!

Thanks for the good discussion, everyone. Time to wrap this one up.

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