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Old October 2, 2010, 05:00 AM   #1
therealdeal
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2 punks hassling you near your property

I don't know why this came to mind, but I have been up all night&2-3days ago my neice was talking about a couple of bullies in the neighborhood.

Let's say your doing your yardwork one day, and a couple punks start verbally harassing you from the street. They don't like how you called the police one night when you saw them doing lawnjobs nextdoor, they're always drunk, stoned, partying, or something of the sort+they're pretty much the neighborhood muscle/trouble. Your cell is inside, your wife is@the store, you're carrying concealed as always anonymously, and these guys who are twenty-something year-olds) keep approaching you while verbally harassing you, poking fun at you and your family, and pretty much have bad intentions. At the very least they're trying to intimidate you, think they're tough, and attempting to humiliate you while getting in your face(at the moment they're still approaching from about 10-15 feet tops but they are now on your property). How do you handle this? These guys have been in lots of trouble before.

sorry-didnt know how to do poll
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Old October 2, 2010, 05:36 AM   #2
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I tell them they need to get off my property and at the same time I would

head toward them... but then that's me and what I've learned ....

99% of all bullies will start backing up if you come toward them.

the more they yelled or the more verbally agressive they got the less I would yell.. get quiet and calm and if anything repeat yourself.... "leave my property now."
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Old October 2, 2010, 05:50 AM   #3
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...you're carrying concealed as always anonymously...
There's some two-legged trash in or near my neighborhood, but it gives me wide berth: instead of carrying concealed, I nearly always carry openly around the yard. Living as I do in Colorado, that's perfectly legal.
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:06 AM   #4
therealdeal
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start my quote:
Quote:
...you're carrying concealed as always anonymously...
end my quote

Quote:
There's some two-legged trash in or near my neighborhood, but it gives me wide berth: instead of carrying concealed, I nearly always carry openly around the yard. Living as I do in Colorado, that's perfectly legal.

STANDING WOLF,

That's a good point. I didn't even think about that, but I have heard that works. One guy on this forum(sorry I forgot the name) said he had some messed up neighbors. As soon as he started open carrying while doing yardwork or garage work he has never heard from these neighbors- they bother other 'weak' neighbors. He wasn't provoking them or instigating them; he just started to OC on his property.
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:09 AM   #5
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I'm glad I don't have the neighbor problem
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:28 AM   #6
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These types of scenarios are usually found in Tactics & Training.

Moving ...
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:49 AM   #7
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Why would I be prepared enough to carry my gun but not my cell?

Where I live you can't use deadly force if you initiate a physical confrontation. By approaching them, you may be giving the wrong image to the neighbors to recall later for the police. Drop it, your ego isn't worth a prison sentence or even a trial. If you feel legitimately threatened then you know what to do.
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:59 AM   #8
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AcridSaint, while I agree with you about not initiating any conflict, I think blume357 is looking at it from the perspective of body language and predators. An apparent retreat from the bullies would encourage more bullying from them, and would potentially also escalate things.

I would not leave my property to approach them, but having dealt with bullies in the past I would also not wish to let them think they could intimidate me. So, I'd recommend standing ground, staying cool, telling them to leave now, or be upset later because I'd be calling the cops again.

My state has no obligation to retreat, and I would not retreat from a pair of bullies in the circumstances given.

If they forced a situation where I felt it necessary to draw -

There are two of them: disparity of force.
They have bad reputations in the neighborhood: character, past actions, reasonable man possessed of that knowledge.
I've previously called the police due to their actions: attempts have been made to work via law enforcement.
They are angry because the cops were called: intimidation of witness? repeat offense?

These two would set themselves up for a very bad day if they actually came on property and attempted an assault.

But again, I wouldn't initiate. I just wouldn't let them continue their aggression.

Edit: a cell phone is ALWAYS on my person if a gun is on my person; read that advice from Massad Ayoob and others, and it has always made perfect sense to me.
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Old October 2, 2010, 07:52 AM   #9
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Tell them you are armed and to get off your property. I would walk backwards to put some distance between us. Fifteen feet is only a couple quick leaps, especially for healthy 20-somethings. When you have some distance reveal, but don't point, your firearm. They will leave. Then go inside and call the police.
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Old October 2, 2010, 08:17 AM   #10
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You're on thin ice using deadly force in a verbal confrontation, even 2 on 1. First tell them explicitly (in front of witnesses if possible) to get off your property & leave you alone. When they do not comply, use pepper spray or wasp spray, if you're feeling particularly nasty, then call the police immediately & swear out a warrant for assault, criminal trespass. It also creates a paper trail, should you have to use deadly force later on.
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Old October 2, 2010, 08:34 AM   #11
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So do I understand the scenario correctly? You have a gun and absolutely no other capabilities other than yardwork?

Pepper spray is good, but I am guessing that if you don't have your phone, you probably don't have your pepper spray either.
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Old October 2, 2010, 08:50 AM   #12
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Pretty meaningless scenario.

You're talking about some losers picking on you, basically. They're not on your property, they haven't threatened you with harm and all they're doing is calling you bad names.

It's a simple thing.... ignore them.

First off, NEVER be without your cell phone. As soon as they approach, put it in voice memo mode to record what happens and then ignore them. If they approach and touch your property, tell them to leave now or you'll have them arrested for trespassing. If they're not gone in seconds, go inside, call the police and have them charged.

Walking away does not show weakness.
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Old October 2, 2010, 08:50 AM   #13
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I'd say that is a tough situation. In Florida, open carry is not an option. Drawing early may be considered brandishing, and drawing late may lead to a gun grab or worse. Even if you are on the phone dialing 911, how quickly can you do so and how quickly do the police respond? I guess it is better to have 911 on the line in case things get ugly since there will be an audio record of what occured.

I guess if I was in your situation, I would be on the phone with 911 immediately. I would rest my other hand on my concealed weapon and stare them down. If they came onto my property, I would tell them they were trespassing on private property and to back off... or else! If they got closer than 15 feet, I would draw and have the gun in low ready position. I guess it always comes down to the saying "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".
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Old October 2, 2010, 08:52 AM   #14
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The only difference with me is, I have had brain surgery and have been warned not to take any blows to the head. I would draw as soon as they were advancing toward me on my property.

The unsuspecting bullies would be in BIG trouble.

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Old October 2, 2010, 09:04 AM   #15
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Depends on the yard work... Mine usually involves an 18" Stihle chainsaw.
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Old October 2, 2010, 09:04 AM   #16
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You won't like my response. Most of you probably won't approve of my response, but here goes - this is probably what I'd do, even if its the "wrong" thing to do.

A gun is not an option - so take that off the table right away - I don't carry around my home, so normally I wouldn't even have it on me (again, OP asked how I would handle it, not how he should handle it). I'm a good fighter - I used to box, kickbox, and grapple and still train a little to keep my skills up. So, I don't care much for loud-mouth disrespectful boozers. I refuse to be intimidated or bullied anywhere near my home. That's right, my property line doesn't end where the county says it does, as far as I'm concerned.

So, I'd confront them. I don't yell, I don't cuss, and sometimes I like to "act' like I'm a little scared and intimidated. Whatever I do, one or both of them will probably end up getting in my face and then it's going to get physical. I do believe that sometimes, you just have to fight the fight. For some reason that's not the "legal" or "politically correct" thing to do. But, that's really the way its been since the beginning of time.

I know this is how I'd handle it because similar things have happened in the past, and that is how I did handle things in the past.
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Old October 2, 2010, 09:12 AM   #17
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Long answer:
One: Learn just a little something about the laws regarding trespass in our jurisdiction. In many states, you may ask a trespasser to leave, and if he does not comply, you may only call the police. In some states, the police may only issue a citation--rather like a traffic ticket. In no state may you use deadly force for trespass alone or to enforce a request to leave.

Two: Find out whether you have a duty to retreat in your state. Don't rely on the criminal code--it may have been defined in legal precedent.

Three: Figure out what evidence you might be able to present in your defense should things go south after you have elected to not retreat, if retreat is not required. With any luck at all, you will not have advanced at all.
Short answer: Make your self scarce before anything gets uncomfortable. Keep your health, your money, your clean record, and your right to own a gun.
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Old October 2, 2010, 09:23 AM   #18
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I would not record someone without their knowledge unless it is legal in your jurisdiction. Their offense maybe a simple trespass & your recording the subsequent conversation maybe a felony.
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Old October 2, 2010, 09:24 AM   #19
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peetzakilla...

... I usually tend to agree with you, but not on this one, so I wonder if we read it differently.

Per the OP's scenario, the two guys are known as local bullies/muscle. They've been in trouble with the law multiple times. They are currently specifically angry at you because they believe you called the law on them last time they did something in the neighborhood, and they are now trying to intimidate you.

Also per the OP's scenario, while they started out name-calling from the street, they've closed, entered your property, and are now 15ft and closing in your yard.

If it were just name calling from the street, I'd say sure, blow them off, head inside, and call the cops. However, this is an initially verbal situation that seems to be on its way toward physical (the guys are coming onto private property of a person they know does not want them there, and they are behaving belligerently; they have a known history of verbal and physical bad acts.)

Walking away may not show weakness, but it depends on a few factors. Also, they may not perceive your walking away as having been done from a position of strength. If they think they've scared you, they may be satisfied and leave, but there are at least equally good odds that they'll take it up a notch, since bullies often get off on fear.

A tactical retreat may be in order. I wouldn't assume you could just safely walk away, though; they've already entered your property and closed a lot of distance on you.

I've known a few guys like this; from Skans' response, I think he's known some similar guys.
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Old October 2, 2010, 09:40 AM   #20
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MLeake,

The problem with these scenarios is that there's always 100 ways to avoid them before you ever get to the scenario condition.


You're right, I did miss the part about them being on your property, I read it that they are NOT yet on your property. That's OK, just pick up my answer at the "Leave now, or I'll have you arrested for trespassing!" part.

Also, as the scenario is written, it may or may not be prudent to draw your firearm at this moment. The description of neighborhood punks is not sufficient. We need to know their specific history of VIOLENCE. There's tipping over lawn flamingo punks, there's beating up the neighbor and stealing his briefcase punks and there's putting granny in a coma and stealing her car punks.

Regardless, my answer is simple.... don't get in this scenario. Have your phone and use it and I still say that walking away, perhaps backwards with gun drawn, is not a sign of weakness.

Anyway, even though the use of deadly force in this scenario should be clear cut legal in almost any jurisdiction, we must not forget the troubles and tribulation of the Arizona (i think) homeowner who just lived out almost this very scenario and did a couple of month a in jail and two trials for his efforts.
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Old October 2, 2010, 09:53 AM   #21
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PK...

... I agree more with your revamped answer.

I'm not advocating going violent early, or initiating. If you can back away while not behaving in a way that makes them think they have you cowed, great. Not shooting is preferable.

Dealing with bullies is kind of like dealing with aggressive dogs. If you let them think they're in charge, they can become much more dangerous. Controlled tactical retreat vs rout, if you will, would be fine.

The one concern I have with the cell phone would be whether there would be time to actually use it, vs whether it would just be a distraction.

Given the yardwork scenario, it's entirely feasible they could get fairly close before you ever knew it - assuming your mower is as loud as mine, for instance. Phones are great, and I always have one, but with two aggressive guys at close range, tying one hand up with reaching for that pocket might be a bad move.

You're right to ask what sort of tough/bad are these guys supposed to be? If they play mailbox baseball, etc, that's different than if they routinely beat down the neighborhood teenagers, which is different from they've done time for agg assault.
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Old October 2, 2010, 11:53 AM   #22
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Yep.... and you've identified the other major problem with these scenarios.... Your assumptions, versus mine, versus the OP. That, coupled with God-Only-Knows how many variables that I might be ignoring but you are not or vice-versa and who knows what mixture thereof.... pretty much makes these things worthless.

Your yard work put you on a mower... mine was racking leaves....


Anyway, the worst of it is that the OP ties our hands. "Your phone is inside", no, it's not. I carry a gun, I can sure as hell carry a phone. "Keep approaching", no, they don't. I would exit at the FIRST instance of trouble not wait for more.

Regardless, the "verbally harassing you, poking fun at you and your family," part of the whole thing is really totally irrelevant. Anyone who can't deal with "poking fun" and "verbal harassment" without wondering about lethal force should decidedly not be carrying a gun. Maybe these guys pose a lethal threat, maybe not, but the name calling is completely beside the point.
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Old October 2, 2010, 12:07 PM   #23
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Now you've gone and done it, PK...

... we are back in total agreement.
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Old October 2, 2010, 12:16 PM   #24
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Quote:
Why would I be prepared enough to carry my gun but not my cell?
Quote:
Anyway, the worst of it is that the OP ties our hands. "Your phone is inside", no, it's not. I carry a gun, I can sure as hell carry a phone.
Quote:
...don't get in this scenario. Have your phone and use it ...
Quote:
First off, NEVER be without your cell phone.
Wow. I'm shocked at all the people in this forum who NEVER have a battery die, NEVER misplace the cell phone for a little while, NEVER break a cell phone, NEVER set the phone on the charger while working around the house, NEVER decide that they don't want their phone to get banged around while they're doing yard work so leave it inside ...

I bet these are the same people who NEVER enter "condition white" and ALWAYS see everything happening around them.

</sarcasm>

Guys, seriously: if you don't want to think the scenario through as given, then don't. If the scenario is too damn stupid or silly for words, the moderators will be along shortly to close it anyway (because we don't do stupid-sillies here).

But don't kid yourselves into thinking that you could NEVER get into a dicey situation without your cell phone, or that you will NEVER make any other sort of pre-situation mistake that could limit your options if something bad happens. That's just -- well, denial ain't just a river in Egypt, that's all I'm saying.

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Old October 2, 2010, 12:18 PM   #25
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They don't like how you called the police one night when you saw them doing lawnjobs nextdoor
So they've already been through the system at least once. I would just remind them of that and have them consider the consequences of going through the system again.

Retreat and call the cops.
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